I'm Sorry Everyone - Here's The Reason I Acted That Way

[Xanth]

Originally Posted by res

I live in this moment and discuss matters that pertain to the same. When i read your posts i seem to be reading more of what others have written that you have chosen to accumulate as your total wisdom. Makes it hard for me to take you seriously as a researcher of truth but rather a researcher of literature. You wont find anything that others have not found following in their shadows .

I made this very point to someone else today...

"You'll never find your answers in somebody else's truths"

Sorry Summerlander i dont feel like being provoked in to giving you futile proof that you will only accept as truth when you experience it for yourself first hand. There is no truth in reading text, only trust and belief.....can you understand that! Your beliefs are so deeply rooted in the physical reality that you are are no where near in a position to find anything in these spiritual forums except resistance by those members that see you for what you are be-ing.

Heres some advice for you that is of the scientific world....study Newtons third law before you consider approaching people for their assistance.

There is no honor in your attempted conquest here Summerlander and thats as close as i can get to the core of this sensible debate with you.

Very well said.

[TerraStorm]

Originally Posted by 12padams

2.5 years past and after trying for ages with no results I almost came to the conclusion that astral projection didn't exist because I couldn't achieve it. In October 2011 just before I gave up and lost hope I found another website that had a free eBook (won't list the website/book since it is apparently illegal to do so on these forums) that had techniques to astral project. Instantly I was hooked and devoted my life to trying to achieve astral projection and 19 days later I had my first low lucidity experience followed by a higher lucidity experience after 35 days.*

After that point I continued to have more and more experiences and write them down in my own books. Wow was I excited yet before long I realized that the entire community were skeptics and said that astral projection is just you conscious in a world created by your subconscious mind. I was so angry by this that I tried to prove them wrong by performing experiments that proved telepathic connections existed within the astral.

The results were scattered yet I did get some amazing events occurring when I spoke to Tony about everything. He correctly predicted what two different people would see if they looked into themselves because he sensed they had an entity in them. When I started telling all the skeptics on the website I was using about all the "proof" I had received they said that it was all coincidence and that It would be a coincidence if things like this didn't happen at least once... They told me that I was young and immature for believing that astral projection truly took you to another place/dimension/plane. They say that they have outgrown that childish fantasy and are now mature for believing its all in your head.

I was furious and I tried to prove them wrong. I was certain the astral was more than a mind creation and then boom... Tony gives me a prediction of an event that would occur on April 14th 2012. I was beyond excited and was telling everyone on obe4u.com about how I was gonna prove it to them. I continued performing my experiments however they all failed to prove the astral is not a mind creation. That didn't matter to me anymore because I was there to prove them all wrong when Tony's prediction came true.

I started a countdown thread and the skeptics laughed at me and I laughed at them. I made a deal with them... If I can prove to them its all real then they are not allowed to be skeptics anymore... If I couldn't then I promised them I would become a skeptic to. Excitement built up and I was ready to receive the proof and convert a forum of about 300 skeptics to believers. Then suddenly... the event didn't occur. I was shattered and filled with rage... Why believe if I can't get proof.

I can understand your frustration here and the need to get proof but all this is not going to help to achieve astral awareness. For your consciousness to reach higher dimensions you would first need to totally accept the fact that they exist. You cant experience something that you dont think is real! Lol, It's funny that these skeptics speak of the astral as all in the mind but they're yet to realize that science has progressed in the last 20 years and now acknowledges higher dimensions. Did you know that string theory and supersymmetry describe dynamics in the astral 5th dimension fairly accurately.*

Physics now acknowledges that there is a bosonic (force based particle) counterpart to fermions (mass based particles) with an equal quantum value, same mass differing only in spin by half a degree, overlapping the same space. This particular supersymmetry occurs in dimensions 1, *5 and 9, depending on the supersymmetry theory this can vary, however dimension 5 is a common factor in the majority. Moreover, mass in the physical third dimension has a Supersymmetric counterpart in the 1st, 5th and 9th dimensions depending on which theory your using as a measure.
In laymans terms; I'll use dimension 5 as the example here because the 5th dimension or astral is the topic of this discussion at the moment. All mass particles or physical objects in the 3rd dimension has a clone or look alike counterpart in the 5th dimension. These clone like counterparts look and feel the same however instead of being made up of mass they are made up of force, and occupy the 5th dimension. This is how physics perceives how the 5th dimension appears and what it contains (amongst other things).

Now in metaphysics or the spiritual community the Astral or 5th dimension is described by the many who traverse this dimension as appearing like the physical dimension in most aspects. Astral projectors describe seeing landscapes, people and places that are the same as the physical. In the astral dimension you can experience being in your room that is exactly identical to your room on the physical dimension.

So what can we deduce from this? Physics describes the 5th dimension as containing a supersymmetric counterpart that looks and feels like its physical counterpart. Metaphysics describes the 5th (Astral) Dimension as appearing the same as the physical dimension, in other words objects and places in the astral have a physical counterpart in the third dimension that looks the same.

Now if science and spirituality both describe this dimension in a similar almost same capacity, then I think it's safe to say that it's not all in the mind. I recommend these skeptics brush up on current science before dismissing anything as in the mind or fantasy, as this demonstrates how primitive their limited understanding of the universe really is. Current physics has evolved to a level that now supports many metaphysical principles. Which is about time if you ask me.

You want to experience this dimension yourself as proof? If this is the case then you need to acknowledge the dimension as real before you can experience it. We can only experience something we know, perceive or believe to be real. The reality we experience is based on our perception of what is real. Perception is integral to experience. Those that perceive and understand the universe in a broad sense where they accept extended realities outside of the physical dimension will often be the first to experience larger realities. Those who are unsure or with a limited perception of the universe will only experience reality in a limited capacity. Perception involves what you see, hear, taste, touch, smell. An individual with limited perception will taste, touch, smell, hear and see in the same limited capacity. As you broaden your perception, you broaden what you See, Smell, Taste, Touch and Smell.

In your case you are looking for proof. So in your perception you have not yet truly acknowledged the existence of the Astral, and as a result of this you have not yet experienced the Astral. Your perception will only allow you to see the universe as you understand it. If you want to experience more then you need to extend your perception. It doesn't take much more than willingness to extend your perception. Increasing knowledge can also extend perception. Looking for proof tells your consciousness that you don't perceive it's real yet, so my advice is instead of looking to prove something look to understand something instead. Looking to understand tells your consciousness that you accept it as an actual possibility. Proving is motivated by doubt, Understanding is motivated by acceptance of something and the desire to furthur knowledge in that area. I cant stress how much Doubt and Acceptance play a crucial role in perception.

Did you know that string theory and supersymmetry describe dynamics in the astral 5th dimension fairly accurately.

WHAT????!!!!

Sorry...ahem... are you using string theory as evidence of an "astral 5th dimension"? That's absurd. Don't make me embarass you in front of this community like me and a friend of mine embarassed pseudo-scientist Thomas Campbell in a debate. LOL! This is somewhat familiar...

Originally Posted by Summerlander

WHAT????!!!!

Sorry...ahem... are you using string theory as evidence of an "astral 5th dimension"? That's absurd. Don't make me embarass you in front of this community like me and a friend of mine embarassed pseudo-scientist Thomas Campbell in a debate. LOL! This is somewhat familiar...

Sorry for sticking my nose in. I've heard people talk about Thomas Campbell, and I've watched a couple of his YouTube videos. I haven't made my mind up about him. You say you have debated with this guy and caused him embarrassment so you have piqued my curiosity. Would you mind providing more details? You refer to him as a pseudo scientist so he obviously must have provided you with good reason to come to this conclusion.

Well, of course, since you ask...

I'd let you decide for yourself first but if you want my input I think this pretty much covers it.

http://forum.obe4u.com/index.php?topic=800.0

Originally, the debate happened in a Dreams Explorer group on Facebook and Mr. Campbell was very evasive and defensive when certain questions regarding his claims were made. Particularly regarding the double-slit experiment. He claims that whether we observe the recorded data or not determines the outcome of the photonic pattern. This is false.

Consciousness has nothing to do with it but I see how it appeals to New Age adherents. In the experiment, "observing" means that you are measuring something. He doesn't seem to want his fanbase to realise this. When you measure something, you will unavoidably affect the state that something is in. This is particularly true about quantum experiments. It's not consciousness.

The bulb being used to measure what route the photons or electrons took immediately affect their states. A simpler analogy: shine a light on an object to see what it looks like and you will find that it is bright because it is being illuminated by the light source - it no longer looks the same as it did when it wasn't being shined upon.

No magic...no paranormal...no consciousness acting directly upon what happens in the experiment other than the one that decides to perform it and to observe the outcome of what is being affected.

If you are interested in quantum mechanics and real science I recommend the sound works of Brian Cox who works at CERN. In particular: The Quantum Universe

Glad to be of help!

Originally Posted by Summerlander

Well, of course, since you ask...

I'd let you decide for yourself first but if you want my input I think this pretty much covers it.



Originally, the debate happened in a Dreams Explorer group on Facebook and Mr. Campbell was very evasive and defensive when certain questions regarding his claims were made. Particularly regarding the double-slit experiment. He claims that whether we observe the recorded data or not determines the outcome of the photonic pattern. This is false.

Consciousness has nothing to do with it but I see how it appeals to New Age adherents. In the experiment, "observing" means that you are measuring something. He doesn't seem to want his fanbase to realise this. When you measure something, you will unavoidably affect the state that something is in. This is particularly true about quantum experiments. It's not consciousness.

The bulb being used to measure what route the photons or electrons took immediately affect their states. A simpler analogy: shine a light on an object to see what it looks like and you will find that it is bright because it is being illuminated by the light source - it no longer looks the same as it did when it wasn't being shined upon.

No magic...no paranormal...no consciousness acting directly upon what happens in the experiment other than the one that decides to perform it and to observe the outcome of what is being affected.

If you are interested in quantum mechanics and real science I recommend the sound works of Brian Cox who works at CERN. In particular: The Quantum Universe

Glad to be of help!

Thanks for taking the time to add some clarification.

I'm not looking for a guru so I wouldn't judge the guy too harshly for being wrong with some of his ideas - even a broken clock is right twice a day. I would be more worried if he was deliberately deceitful which you seem to be implying here. It is a pity that you don't have a link to the original discussion because that is a serious accusation to make. It is not that I disbelieve your story but it is a bit one sided. I will dig deeper.

I must admit that I'm surprised by your claim that consciousness has nothing to do with the slit experiment - that just sounds absurd. Are you claiming that measurement can occur without consciousness? How could that possibly work? Even if you programmed a robot to take the measurements they would't exist as measurements without consciousness. Maybe I'm being dumb here do please feel free to educate me.

Well, I saw for myself that the guy was being suspiciously evasive. By the way, whether consciousness is present or not, the outcome is the same. What determines the change is the device that does the measuring because it interferes with the pattern unavoidably.

Campbell sprinkled the experiment with mysticism and falsehood by claiming that even if the devices are on but not recording, that the interference pattern remains. This does not happen and you don't need a sound physicist to tell you this. You can perform the experiment and see for yourself.

Finally, if Campbell was so true and revolutionary in his claims, don't you think he'd already won a Nobel Prize. Conveniently, he claims that the scientific community holds a "little picture" at present and suspiciously, those experiments with Monroe were never replicated.

Some people who move around in scientific circles have become aware of him and already he is a laughing stock despite his intriguing, yet with loopholes, THEORY of everything. He's even been dubbed a "crackpot" in some physics forums.

Originally Posted by Summerlander

Well, I saw for myself that the guy was being suspiciously evasive. By the way, whether consciousness is present or not, the outcome is the same. What determines the change is the device that does the measuring because it interferes with the pattern unavoidably.

Campbell sprinkled the experiment with mysticism and falsehood by claiming that even if the devices are on but not recording, that the interference pattern remains. This does not happen and you don't need a sound physicist to tell you this. You can perform the experiment and see for yourself.

Finally, if Campbell was so true and revolutionary in his claims, don't you think he'd already won a Nobel Prize. Conveniently, he claims that the scientific community holds a "little picture" at present and suspiciously, those experiments with Monroe were never replicated.

Some people who move around in scientific circles have become aware of him and already he is a laughing stock despite his intriguing, yet with loopholes, THEORY of everything. He's even been dubbed a "crackpot" in some physics forums.

Thanks for clarifying your views on Campbell, but I remain confused about your claims in regards to consciousness and measurement. I still don’t understand how you can say that consciousness has nothing to do with the slit experiments – hey-ho.


Your exchanges with this man have been enough to convince you that he is deceitful, but they are a bit too vague and one-sided to mean much to me. As far as I can see you are making too many bold accusations and not backing these up with hard evidence. I’m not particularly put off by the idea that other scientists view him as a ‘crack pot’ as he does claim to be working on the edges of physics. The fact that he hasn’t won a Nobel Prize is irrelevant as plenty of game changing scientists failed to do this. You may well be right about him, but I'll keep an open mind. I do appreciate that you took the time to reply to me - thanks.

[Podshell]

I have always thought there could be a simpler explanation regards these experiments . But if there is a simple explanation I don't think it does much to disprove anything, except maybe some false theories that came out of the experiments (so no loss or gain either way)

I'll simplify it for you. The word "observing" means "measuring" in the experiment. It is a term that is adopted by many scientists. Campbell plays with the semantics in order to dupe the layman and claims that a being who consciously observes collapses reality. Nonsense.

As I explained it to you above, whether one looks at the recorded data or not is irrelevant. What he says happens does not happen because it is the measuring device that interferes with the pattern.

It is certainly true that many scientists don't win a Nobel Prize. But in this case, a man like him who claims to have a revolutionary theory of everything should already be in the limelight at least. He is not. Also, his errors are far too prominent to go unnoticed by anyone who has an inkling.

When asked for an explanation for his errors and even proposed with the suggestion that he could mend them and still save his theory (though by mending, the lack of evidence to back up his claims would diminish - it was never there in the first place!!) he refused to explain himself, became defensive and accuse us of having the "little picture" with no explanation whatsoever. He also refused to come back to the group.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not out to accuse anyone. Thomas Campbell builds his reputation all by himself. I've seen it for myself how he reacted and how he refused to acknowledge his errors without further discussion. In hindsight, they are not really "errors" - more like deliberate "lies". I have invited Campbell to argue against my suspicions and prove me wrong. this hasn't happened.

He is not Galileo or Isaac Newton. He's more like Marshall Applewhite.

I can guarantee you that he will never get a place in history. His theory is good but lacks evidence and loses credibility if a percentage of its foundations are false - especially such an intrinsic one as his portrayal the double-slit test and quantum mechanics. His theory is a fantastical one but I thought of that when I was 15 and less literate...

Anyway, I investigated and saw what he is. I don't waste my time with him any more. His catchphrase "be sceptical but open-minded" is nothing but a gimmick. If you want to swallow his bull be my guest.