Levels/Layers of Progression

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by running

bliss happens because the crown and other energy centers have become very open. being that open is like becoming out of a bubble therr fore becoming a catapult for others to experience the same. distance, time, and other walls are literally knocked down.

Running, hello there! I get what you're saying and if folks have this experience, they will agree that it is powerful and equally importantly that it does point the way and move them forward on their path. And I would argue that for the vast majority who experience transformative bliss, it is transformative of the person -- such that the importance of transparently and concretely manifesting authentic love in ways that are meaningful to others equally to the self become of utmost primacy and immediacy.

So I just want to further underscore that bliss and manifestation of authentic love in being and doing are NOT mutually exclusive. This is like taking oxygen out of air, or air out of the sky. And yet, even within the realm of service in love, this means different things to all of us. Why? We're all different...and that is precisely the key to manifesting authentic love in being and doing within our circle of humanity, i.e., using skillful means that stretch us and allow for our own growth in love equally to that of others, whom we serve in authentic love.

So, here is the last bit I wanted to further clarify. Not everyone will experience bliss in the way you describe. Nor is living in this state of bliss even desirable for many. There is a sublime joy in being that encompasses all states of the emotional and spiritual realm, and sees none as being above or preferred. Even if the blissful state "feels" good or "feels" better.

Moreover, even the supreme state of bliss is, for many, attained in different ways. For some, perhaps it is meditative or contemplative in origin or nature, attached to or deriving from (so to speak) simple awareness of being. For others, bliss derives from intentional metta practices and other service and devotion done in lovingkindness...including giving or volunteering with the sick or poor or vulnerable.

For others, bliss derives from the inspired writings and noble truths, such as those embodied in Jonesboy's levels of progress...and bliss may also derive from the lovingkindness and direct application of wisdom teachings and guidance from one who truly has your highest good at heart...a guide or guru of pure intention and skillful means. For others, the presence of a guru of great spiritual stature may inspire, too...but for just as many others, it is only when there is both a personal relationship -- and also unity in both spiritual and waking realms -- that our respect for them reaches a transformative level.

I find any one of these, and many others besides, paths to bliss...but I want to clearly state that the experience of bliss as sublime joy is IMO deeper and more penetrating even than the experience of bliss as 11 on the old stereo dial of 1-10. IMO it's not about being overcome or "outercome"...it's about being innercome and undercome, foundationally transformed and moved to the core of our being in that most sublime of ways...via equanimity, lovingkindness, and the simple, low-key, wholly centred radiant joy of being.

So...bliss is great, but there is a spectrum of what exactly that is...and most importantly, there is an infinity of love in being and doing that occurs beyond bliss, or from a state of sublime joy. And IMO, that's what is most important for us all to keep in mind and at heart.

Peace & blessings amigo
7L

[blossomingtree]

I'm with ya - without Truth/Compassion/and ultimately then, Service, it's just a pretty landscape

[running]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Running, hello there! I get what you're saying and if folks have this experience, they will agree that it is powerful and equally importantly that it does point the way and move them forward on their path. And I would argue that for the vast majority who experience transformative bliss, it is transformative of the person -- such that the importance of transparently and concretely manifesting authentic love in ways that are meaningful to others equally to the self become of utmost primacy and immediacy.

So I just want to further underscore that bliss and manifestation of authentic love in being and doing are NOT mutually exclusive. This is like taking oxygen out of air, or air out of the sky. And yet, even within the realm of service in love, this means different things to all of us. Why? We're all different...and that is precisely the key to manifesting authentic love in being and doing within our circle of humanity, i.e., using skillful means that stretch us and allow for our own growth in love equally to that of others, whom we serve in authentic love.

So, here is the last bit I wanted to further clarify. Not everyone will experience bliss in the way you describe. Nor is living in this state of bliss even desirable for many. There is a sublime joy in being that encompasses all states of the emotional and spiritual realm, and sees none as being above or preferred. Even if the blissful state "feels" good or "feels" better.

Moreover, even the supreme state of bliss is, for many, attained in different ways. For some, perhaps it is meditative or contemplative in origin or nature, attached to or deriving from (so to speak) simple awareness of being. For others, bliss derives from intentional metta practices and other service and devotion done in lovingkindness...including giving or volunteering with the sick or poor or vulnerable.

For others, bliss derives from the inspired writings and noble truths, such as those embodied in Jonesboy's levels of progress...and bliss may also derive from the lovingkindness and direct application of wisdom teachings and guidance from one who truly has your highest good at heart...a guide or guru of pure intention and skillful means. For others, the presence of a guru of great spiritual stature may inspire, too...but for just as many others, it is only when there is both a personal relationship -- and also unity in both spiritual and waking realms -- that our respect for them reaches a transformative level.

I find any one of these, and many others besides, paths to bliss...but I want to clearly state that the experience of bliss as sublime joy is IMO deeper and more penetrating even than the experience of bliss as 11 on the old stereo dial of 1-10. IMO it's not about being overcome or "outercome"...it's about being innercome and undercome, foundationally transformed and moved to the core of our being in that most sublime of ways...via equanimity, lovingkindness, and the simple, low-key, wholly centred radiant joy of being.

So...bliss is great, but there is a spectrum of what exactly that is...and most importantly, there is an infinity of love in being and doing that occurs beyond bliss, or from a state of sublime joy. And IMO, that's what is most important for us all to keep in mind and at heart.

Peace & blessings amigo
7L

my thoughts responding back.

there are many paths to the bliss. and the ones that matter are the ones that work. from reading your posts you seem to know what works for you. and that there is much diversity in the paths. what happens at some point is it just becomes the expereince in that it doesnt come and go. from there the things that would previously bring us to it is just no longer required since its always there. but that doesnt mean those things are no longer important. and if its about giving then it becomes easier. since your no longer searching for your joy. since its always present. but also that doesnt mean the emotional body cant be fed. and so preferences and circumstances matter. even if bliss is always there.

[jonesboy]

It seems that bliss, joy, an open heart are tending to be sometime things or one or the other.

Let us examine what the Primordial State is according to Dzogchen.

DZOGCHEN
THE SELF-PERFECTED STATE
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

In the Dzogchen teachings the primordial state of the base
is not defined only as being void, but is explained as having
three aspects or characteristics, called the "three primordial
wisdoms": essence, nature, and energy.

The essence is the void, the real condition of the individual
and of all phenomena. This base is the condition of all individuals,
whether they are aware of it or not, whether they
are enlightened or in transmigration. It is said to be "pure
from the beginning" (ka dag), because, like space, it is free of
all impediments, and is the basis of all the manifestations in
existence.

The manifestation of the primordial state in all its aspects,
its "clarity," on the other hand, is called the nature. It is said
to be "self-perfected" (lhun grub), because it exists spontaneously
from the beginning, like the sun which shines in
space. Clarity is the pure quality of all thought and of all
perceived phenomena, uncontaminated by mental judgment.
For example, when we see a flower, we first perceive
its image without the mind entering into judgment, even if
this phase of perception only lasts for a fraction of a second.
Then, in a second phase, mental judgment enters into the
situation and one categorizes the perception, thinking,
"That's a flower, it's red, it has a specific scent, and so on."
Developing from this, attachment and aversion, acceptance
and rejection all arise, with the consequent creation of karma and transmigration. Clarity is the phase in which perception
is vivid and present, but the mind has not yet entered
into action. It is the spontaneous manifestation of the
individual's state. The same is true for thoughts: if we don't
follow them, and don't become caught up in mental judgment,
they too are part of our natural clarity.

The third of the three primordial wisdoms is energy. Its
characteristic is that it manifests without interruption.4 The
explanation of energy in Dzogchen is fundamental to understanding
the base. All dimensions, whether pure or impure,
material or subtle, are manifestations of one aspect or
another of energy.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...ght=primordial

Void, Clarity, Energy are all one and the same.

Silence is clarity which is oneness which is the light/energy that is all things.

The deeper along the path we go that Clarity becomes a natural state of being.

Yes some will touch on it here and there as we progress along the path but in the end. Yes our natural state is one of bliss and unconditional love or in Buddhist terms Ultimate Bodhicitta.




Making Space with Bodhicitta
By Lama Thubten Yeshe


"Bodhicitta is the essential, universal truth.
This most pure thought is the wish and the will to bring all sentient beings to the realisation of their highest potential, enlightenment.
The Bodhisattva sees the crystal nature that exists in each of us, and by recognising the beauty of our human potential, always has respect.
For the disrespectful mind, human beings are like grass, something to be used. "Ah, he means nothing to me. Human beings are nothing to me."

We all try to take advantage of someone else, to profit only for ourselves. The entire world is built on attachment. Big countries overwhelm small countries, big children take candy from small children, husbands take advantage of their wives. I make friends with someone because he can benefit me. It is the same with the rest of the world. Boyfriends, girlfriends. Everybody wants something.

The desire to make friends only for the other person's benefit is extremely rare; however, it is very worthwhile. Buddha explained that even one moment's thought of this mind dedicated to enlightenment for the sake of others can destroy a hundred thousand lifetimes' negative karma.

We have attachment that makes us tight and uncomfortable. But even a tiny spark of bodhicitta's heat makes the heart warm and relaxed.
Bodhicitta is the powerful solution, the atomic energy that destroys the kingdom of attachment.
Bodhicitta is not emotional love. By understanding the relative nature of sentient beings and seeing their highest destination, and by developing the willingness to bring all beings to that state of enlightenment, the mind is filled with love born from wisdom, not emotion.
Bodhicitta is not partial. Wherever you go with bodhicitta if you meet people, rich people or poor people, black or white, you are comfortable and you can communicate.

We have a fixed idea; life is this way or that. "This is good. This is bad." We do not understand the different aspects of the human condition. But, having this incredible universal thought, our narrow mind vanishes automatically. It is so simple; you have space and life becomes easier.
For example, someone looks at us, at our home, at our garden and we freak out. We are so insecure and tight in our hearts. Arrogant. "Don't look at me." But with bodhicitta there is space. When someone looks we can say, "Hmm. She's looking. But that's O.K." Do you understand? Rather than feeling upset you know it is all right.

Bodhicitta is the intoxicant that numbs us against pain and fills us with bliss.
Bodhicitta is the alchemy that transforms every action into benefit
for others. Bodhicitta is the cloud that carries the rain of positive energy to nourish growing things.
Bodhicitta is not doctrine. It is a state of mind. This inner experience is completely individual. So how can we see who is a Bodhisattva and who is not? can we see the self-cherishing mind?
If we feel insecure ourselves we will project that negative feeling onto others. We need the pure innermost thought of bodhicitta; wherever we go that will take care of us."
http://www.viewonbuddhism.org/compassion.html

[jonesboy]

So the more junk we clear away, the more we realize bodhicitta which is just an aspect of our natural state of being and Yes bliss is a part of it :)

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by running

my thoughts responding back.

there are many paths to the bliss. and the ones that matter are the ones that work. from reading your posts you seem to know what works for you. and that there is much diversity in the paths. what happens at some point is it just becomes the expereince in that it doesnt come and go. from there the things that would previously bring us to it is just no longer required since its always there. but that doesnt mean those things are no longer important. and if its about giving then it becomes easier. since your no longer searching for your joy. since its always present. but also that doesnt mean the emotional body cant be fed. and so preferences and circumstances matter. even if bliss is always there.

Running, hello there!
Agreed, and well said.

I just want to underscore what you said, as I understand it.

Which is that it's not about attaining the bliss per se.

It's about the sublime and radiant joy of being that attends awakened heart-led consciousness...and the service and joy you bring to all existence from this place.

Bliss is just a very nice perk at this point

..but if you didn't feel it for any reason for some time (perhaps due to injury or loss or some momentary obstacle), you know with certainty you'd still who you are at centre...balanced, focused, and grounded in your being and in your service and your journey.

Peace & blessings
7L

[r6r6]

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[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

So the more junk we clear away, the more we realize bodhicitta which is just an aspect of our natural state of being and Yes bliss is a part of it :)

Making Space with Bodhicitta
By Lama Thubten Yeshe

"Bodhicitta is the essential, universal truth.
This most pure thought is the wish and the will to bring all sentient beings to the realisation of their highest potential, enlightenment.
The Bodhisattva sees the crystal nature that exists in each of us, and by recognising the beauty of our human potential, always has respect.
For the disrespectful mind, human beings are like grass, something to be used. "Ah, he means nothing to me. Human beings are nothing to me."

We all try to take advantage of someone else, to profit only for ourselves. The entire world is built on attachment. Big countries overwhelm small countries, big children take candy from small children, husbands take advantage of their wives. I make friends with someone because he can benefit me. It is the same with the rest of the world. Boyfriends, girlfriends. Everybody wants something.

The desire to make friends only for the other person's benefit is extremely rare; however, it is very worthwhile. Buddha explained that even one moment's thought of this mind dedicated to enlightenment for the sake of others can destroy a hundred thousand lifetimes' negative karma.

We have attachment that makes us tight and uncomfortable. But even a tiny spark of bodhicitta's heat makes the heart warm and relaxed.
Bodhicitta is the powerful solution, the atomic energy that destroys the kingdom of attachment.
Bodhicitta is not emotional love. By understanding the relative nature of sentient beings and seeing their highest destination, and by developing the willingness to bring all beings to that state of enlightenment, the mind is filled with love born from wisdom, not emotion.
Bodhicitta is not partial. Wherever you go with bodhicitta if you meet people, rich people or poor people, black or white, you are comfortable and you can communicate.

Jonesboy, agreed -- beautiful words and thanks for sharing.

Yes, at core, lovingkindness is our natural state being. It comprises the foundational essence, nature, and energy of What Is, and thus of who we are. For me, our natural state of being is most deeply resonant with sublime joy and equanimity. But of course, I will allow that there is a blissful aspect

Peace & blessings
7L

[running]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Running, hello there!
Agreed, and well said.

I just want to underscore what you said, as I understand it.

Which is that it's not about attaining the bliss per se.

It's about the sublime and radiant joy of being that attends awakened heart-led consciousness...and the service and joy you bring to all existence from this place.

Bliss is just a very nice perk at this point

..but if you didn't feel it for any reason for some time (perhaps due to injury or loss or some momentary obstacle), you know with certainty you'd still who you are at centre...balanced, focused, and grounded in your being and in your service and your journey.

Peace & blessings
7L

maybe im misunderstanding what your saying. im responding to be clear about bliss and what i know from my experince and heard from others.

once established it never goes away. never that i have ever heard of. i know for me its been about ten years and never a second without it. because that bliss is you. why people call it the natural state. injurys or some other thing cant stop you from expereincing yourself once you are re-established in your true being.

to be clear also bliss is radiant joy, or love. sometimes reading your posts it seems there may be some confusion. as if these were different things.

[7luminaries]

doublepost...sorry