Who's victory was Christ talking about and dying for?

[Honza]

Who is Christ's victory? His own self victory in the sense of I AM? Or God's victory in the sense of the undefinable and unnameable?

Was Christ talking about enlightenment and self realisation - and that is what He died for. Or was He talking about God's victory for the whole Human race?

Is it the same difference???

[Seawolf]

Hi Honza! I love your ideas!

Originally Posted by Honza

Who is Christ's victory? His own self victory in the sense of I AM?

I feel like anyones self victory is also a victory for the rest of the human race? I think we're connected, so an experience or self-awareness of I AM in one affects the whole, not just that one part. But to the person experiencing, it's pretty great so maybe it's mainly a victory for person? Who knows.. I guess the point is to have the experience.

[Honza]

Why are there so few responses here? After all this is the Christian section. Does the question scare you?

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Honza

Why are there so few responses here? After all this is the Christian section. Does the question scare you?

Post a quote so that people can have an understanding of what you are referring to.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by Honza

Was Christ talking about enlightenment and self realisation

Yes.

Originally Posted by Honza

Or was He talking about God's victory for the whole Human race?

"God" is all creation. To become self-realized, is to evolve "God." To become self-realized, is very much a victory for the entire human race and all creation.

Is there a God in the sky who, like a wise and loving father, has orchestrated all this in order to save humanity from itself, and help them to their heavenly victory? No, that's just the child's story version.

[lowlyservant]

Jesus is victorious over the devil who wants you in hell. The devil wants you to be an unhealthy spirit in the afterlife. It is the human condition that we are evil and wicked without God in the afterlife. The soul is without worth or value. It is better off that the soul had never been born. It is without what God would call life...spiritual friends and family, goodness, righteousness and love, etc.

John 3:16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[Amilius777]

Jesus' victory was our victory. He identified with our suffering on Earth, so we can identify with his Resurrection.

The victory of overcoming death was not the overcoming of "death itself". If that were the case why are we still dying? Dying to the old, rising to the New is the process that St. Paul talks about. The soul must die to the old which doesn't have to be actual death but it can be the small deaths we go through before the Big One at the end. If we are fearful of death, we fear change and become constricted, rebellious, and we regress on our Spiritual Evolution instead of progress.

Jesus was overcoming the "fear of Death" to show that there is nothing to fear, accepting the Will of God or "The Flow of the Highest Power" is the most rewarding and fulfilling thing one can do while incarnate in a human body. We fear it but in the character and personality of Jesus, there is no more "fear of the Lord". That gap, that belief system which came from the previous Tribal Age was annihilated. That system or conditional relationship with God was limited. It closed God off from ourselves. That is why Paul says, "The Law only increased sin". It was created on purpose for sin? Think about it. Human consciousness and human souls are always evolving. The people of that TIME could not handle a God of Love, just not quite yet. Their collective consciousness was still tribal. Moses was someone who had a personal God Experience, an experience in God Consciousness. He knew God was the All there Is which shines through all manifestation. So why did he create such a "eye for an eye" Law? It's Karmic Law and it works perfectly if you leave it up to God. The problem is that the People of Israel took the Law into their own hands at times. That is why Paul said that all the Law did was give justified reasons for people to be more sinful, more Cut off, disconnected.

Religion still does this to this day. People justify their violence or hate towards another person because it makes them feel that they need to get even, or it makes them feel Morally superior. Self-righteousness can be the deadliest sin because it is the most difficult to cure. It derives directly from our universal illness. We are all on some degree influenced by "the false perception of Separation". That is the Original Sin which is more of a sickness that tries to influence our daily lives. But it is not real and you don't have to buy into that false reality.

The Demonic on the Other Side love to reinforce this illusion and keep humanity unevolved and stuck in the dark. But there is always a counter-force that is Above and Higher which is always trying to destroy the perception. God created that Illusion on purpose so that souls could be given free will without strings attached in the Third Dimension.


Unfortunately Christians to this day still believe they have to fear a cosmic Judge in the sky.

There are simply two forces in the universe. We call them God and Satan. But you can change those names to LOVE and FEAR: the Higher Spiritual Force of Love which is God, and the Lower Egoic Force of Fear

These Energies are not abstract but living realities, well the Love is more real and living. That is why the High Priest demanded of Jesus- "Are you the Christ, the Son of the LIVING God?" The Priests and teachers of the Law were not mere theologians as of today. They were deep thinkers, some were Mystics, many of them learned in the various opinions of Judaism. They weren't an Organized Religion. Organized religion is something that developed in the 3rd Century and onward with the Middle Ages. They knew that the "Dying God" or the "God of Death" was the Evil side of reality, the Fearful one. This isn't "the Angel of Death' who works for God. This is the Unwanted death, death that steals your happiness and makes you more ego-centric, cut off, blocked, disconnected from what is Higher. This Power started as energy which God created for the purpose of Free will, but later became personified and wielded by an actual Entity which some religions call Lucifer, Mara, Satan. That's for another subject

But here you see that the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ is the pattern of all Cosmic Reality if the soul is willing to live by what is Spiritual and not by what is egocentric.

Remember Jesus was one Man, one person. He's been historically absent for over 2,000 years. Since then we have advanced not only in medicine and technology, but we have advanced in Morality, Society, and even Spirituality. Jesus was limited to the time he dwelled in and was a Man of his time. If it weren't so why did he call a woman "a dog" which was a sexist thing to say in the First Century. He later apologized to her in the text. Why did he say that slavery was okay? We have to remember that Consciousness is always evolving and expanding. Jesus asked for nothing of himself, the resurrection was OUR victory as the collective Children of God which he is included. He is the Leader, leading all souls back to their native awareness of the Highest Power who is Love and Light.

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by Baile

Is there a God in the sky who, like a wise and loving father, has orchestrated all this

This is why I don't believe in a God out there. This reality, creation, universe, whatever, is total ****. The suffering is just ridiculous. No loving father would ever create this. People that think so are beating themselves up, and are deceived. Even people who believe in karma and reincarnation are decieved, they're also buying into this reality.

Realization of I AM is the way out of the lie. That's what I feel. And that is not just something spiritual, it's also understanding our feelings and emotions, truly facing our pain and becoming emotionally healthy, not disassociating from it like is usually done in spirituality.

[Honza]

The thing that people forget about the 'God in the sky' is that we as people are part and parcel of Him. We are extensions of Him. So in effect the only one who is suffering and has been created is God Himself.

God could easily be greater than we are just as I am greater than my little finger. But if I bang my little finger than who suffers? Me of course. We are smaller than God, but it does not mean that we are not Him.

Originally Posted by Honza

Why are there so few responses here? After all this is the Christian section. Does the question scare you?

Because your question is doesn't quite add up. Where are you quoting from?

From among the reports of his teachings, it's worth having a look at the Gospel of Thomas, verse 3.

♥