Unconditional love?

[windywherever]

Originally Posted by Serrao

I think unconditional love is the ability to accept all levels of action from others towards oneself.

Quite often we can assume little words like "accept" are so common that we all mean the same thing, but when it comes to morality and philosophy, the word can often have very different meanings depending on who is using it.

Here's how the dictionary defines the word:

1. consent to receive (a thing offered).
2. believe or come to recognize (an opinion, explanation, etc.) as valid or correct.

So according to the commonly accepted meaning of the word, what you're suggesting is that unconditional love is the ability to accept (as valid or correct) "all levels" of action from others towards one's self.

But is this a standard which you can really stand by in real life? Even if you really, really believe it, is it humanly possible to view as right and/or correct "all levels" of behavior and even if you could do so, would it be just? Greed, pride, hypocrisy, self righteousness; are all these behaviors considered acceptable because of unconditional love? While love can turn the other cheek, while it can suffer long and patiently, while it can bring comfort in the midst of suffering, it never justifies evil or sits quietly back in the shadows pretending that it does not judge or distinguish.

See, what I keep asking people to do is to look at what they are actually saying. Examine how the philosophy works in real life. But for the most part people on this thread seem to be lost in some kind of pink fog of beautiful ideals which appear beautiful on the outside, but which only lead to hypocrisy on the inside.

This is only theory, and I think this is very difficult to attain in the real life.
But great masters have shown that it is possible.

Which great masters never put any standards or conditions on what it means to love vs what it means to be unloving? And what teachings did they give (or follow, in the event that you are referencing their own personal behavior) which show this theory working in practice?

If a theory about love cannot be practiced in real life, then what good is it? It would be like explaining the theory of food replication from water to a starving person. It sounds very nice, but if you walk away from them without giving them what they actually need, in reality, then what's the point?

There is absolutely no good reason to add "unconditional" to the word love. It achieves nothing except a lot of confusion and contradictions.

[windywherever]

In other words:
When the Conditions are ideal, one's true nature shows itself.

Either way, it's all about conditions isn't it? Nothing is unconditional.

Exactly. Here's a list of definitions, synonyms and antonyms (alternate words which have the same /opposite meaning) for the word. I'll only list 2 of the 5 entries since they most contextually agree with the topic. If anyone wants the link for the webpage where I found the info (merriam webster) let me know.

Synonyms and Antonyms of CONDITION

4. something necessary, indispensable, or unavoidable <water is a condition for life on Earth>
Synonyms condition, demand, must, must-have, necessary, necessity, need, needful, requirement, requisite, sine qua non
Related Words precondition, prerequisite; advantage, edge, plus; desideration, desideratum, wish
Near Antonyms amenity, comfort, extra, extravagance, frill, indulgence, luxury, superfluity, surplus, surplusage
Antonyms nonessential, nonnecessity

People have become used to the phrase "uncondtional" in relation to love because it's almost always used in a way which is described as positive and good. But when we insert a few synonyms the problem becomes more clear. Unnecessary love. Dispensable love. Avoidable love. <patience is a condition for love on Earth>

5
something that limits one's freedom of action or choice <their parents placed several conditions on their weekend plans>
Synonyms check, circumscription, condition, constraint, curb, fetter, limitation, restraint, stricture
Related Words exception, proviso, qualification, reservation, stipulation, strings; ban, prohibition, proscription
Near Antonyms freedom, latitude

Conditions put limits to freedoms, actions, or choices. It is a condition of free will that, while we can choose to behave like a mouse, we cannot choose to physiologically change into a mouse.

It is a condition of love that, while we can be angry without being unloving, we cannot be unjust without being unloving.

Hypocrisy comes because there is no such thing as unconditional love. We're bound by conditions as a fact of observable and testable reality. Conditions serve a purpose; they create a distinction between concepts like love and greed, pride, respectability, complacency, self righteousness, injustice and hate. When people presume to remove the conditions which separate love from all these other behaviors, what are they really trying to achieve?

"Unconditional love" becomes the rationalization for just about any behavior. It's an extremely subjective concept which, because it has no conditions, can mean anything the person wants it to mean.

Look again at molearner's description of unconditional love and you'll see it's a perfect example of this...

The only thing conditional in these descriptions is the eye of the beholder. i.e. the description is dependent on the degree of vision. Some can see unconditional love......some cannot. It is a matter of vision.

Unconditional love means whatever the eye of the beholder wants it to mean. That's precisely why it is unconditional. If you see the way molearner sees, then you can see unconditional love. If you do not see the way molearner sees, then you do not have a vision for unconditional love. Can you see the hypocrisy? The condition for unconditional love is that you need correct vision to see it. How does one aquire this condition for being able to understand unconditional love? By agreeing that there is no condition! It's all so much emotional game playing and justifications.

But real love doesn't work that way. It's not based on the interpretation of a single individual, which interpretation can easily change depending on their personal vision from moment to moment. Our perspective on what love is certainly can change as we learn and grow, but it is not the love which changes; it is our perspective.

[smilelaughenjoy]

The lower beings (demons/archons) like to scare people to control them and pretend to be an angry and wrathful "god" , so they are against the teaching of Unconditional Love.

Jesus Christ taught the Unconditional Love to turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and not pick up the sword, not a demon.


And it was Jesus Christ who taught that God is kind even to the evil and unthankful and that we should also be merciful and have this Unconditional Love:

Luke 6:35-36King James Version (KJV)

35*But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.36*Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

[Miss Hepburn]

I have never read this thread...some wonderful posts...skimmed 9 pages.
Surprise! I have something to add! Some has already been said.

The human condition is steeped in duality, period...we have what seems to be conditional love and unconditional love,
up and down, good and bad...logic and the illogical.

The One Consciousness, the Creator, the Infinite One...is Love Itself.
This Being dwells in a 'place' where opposites are not recognized.

This Divine Being sees from an eternal, infinite omni-vision where there is no time or space...no past,
no future...all is within 'His' Being...always was, always will be.

This 'place' is a place we can experience, also...glimpses at first, then hours in meditation until
this different, unworldly perspective becomes more natural rather than supernatural...when it is no longer just for the yogis and teachers.

When this happens, our neighbor can do ridiculous things, say,
throw all their doggy business over the fence to our yard ...
and what can be our stance on this?
We see.
We see why they do these things. We see what they do not see.
We see their pain, their confusion and delusion. We do not take it personally. We are not effected. We see them
as a child in a sand box.
We see they are within the same Being swimming around in the same
bowl of Jello, which is the One Divine Mind;
all being drawn to situations that are created by our individuated minds,
projected out
for our eyes to see on the screen of the 3d world of dense matter....
atoms swirling around slower to appear to our limited senses.

When we become the Seer...that One that knows what is being played out and why, like actors on a stage...when we see
the others' spirit or soul as the pure being it is...covered over by silly delusions...
it becomes easy to love even that neighbor unconditionally because we know who that neighbor is now...
1. a figment of our own mind, comically playing a role just for us
2. not even real, made of dreamstuff 3. God Himself shape shifting once again playing a holographic part

To be in that place of Who we are...is only to be in joy, love, wisdom,
confidence and power...all our views come from our Higher Self...
worldly logic no longer is the primary viewpoint, the intellect takes it's place in the backseat...
the shift of perspective or consciousness has happened.

Then, this unconditional love appears to our minds as
all there ever was.

Ok, time for my coffee.

[knightofalbion]

Unconditional love: A concept open to interpretation ....

You're walking along, a faint glimmer of movement to your left catches your eye. You glance towards it and focus ... It's a tiny little insect drowning in a pool of rain. Poor little thing. Love wells in your heart at its plight and so you bend down and gently scoop it out and place it softly and safely to the side.
That's an aspect of unconditional love.

Again, you're walking along, someone ahead of you stumbles and falls. You don't know them, but all the same you rush over and ask if they're okay and help them to their feet and ascertain if they need any help or treatment for injuries.
That too is an aspect of unconditional love.

There's someone who has done you a wrong, and being human, you're none too pleased about it! In fact you're of a mind to even up the score ...
But, in your mind's eye, imagine that person weeping bitterly, the anger is gone ...
That too is an aspect of unconditional love.

When you reach a point in your spiritual evolution, you come to see, to know and understand that all people are one, that all creatures are one, that all life is animated by the Spirit of God.

So, take this knowledge, add basic kindness, and you have the formula for the application of unconditional love.

As you climb higher spiritually this condition comes more and more into play. You are fettered by your humanness, but even so the sky is the limit ....

[windywherever]

Originally Posted by knightofalbion

So, take this knowledge, add basic kindness, and you have the formula for the application of unconditional love.

As you climb higher spiritually this condition comes more and more into play. You are fettered by your humanness, but even so the sky is the limit ....

I've asked several times on this thread, what is the purpose of adding the word "unconditional" to the word love? Why not just talk about love? Because love does require conditions. Love isn't love without the condition of kindness applied, as you've suggested.

The problem with "unconditional" love is that, without conditions, love can mean whatever people want it to mean according to how they happen to feel at the moment; a perfect recipe for abuse.

[Deepsoul]

When I first met my husband at 27yrs I thought I knew compassion ,we have been together for 20yrs, Then it started we both had provblems with alcohol even though we had met at AA it resurfaced and for 18yrs we went through Hell on and off ,I knew he was an abused child and I also had my own childhood issues all playing out and projecting, when he projected well lets say not many would have made it through except that I truly loved him ,it broke me a few years ago , I went totally insane I was arrested for having a nervous breakdown that didn't hurt anyone else but my self ,I am not a violent person ,the stress of our temptuous relationship turned me into someone I am not and I did crazy stuff, We are now very clean and healing ,its taking a lot of forgiveness acceptance ,brutal honesty, and love to rebuild what was always there love ,maybe had I loved myself more way back when and left for good well I didn't ,maybe I was loving myself in a way, there are so many different types of love ,whatever it is to be called it needs to be the one that values what is best for the situation , I love what Miss H and Knighto have said and I certainly feel I experience that , I know also Windywherever that learning and practicing assertiveness in my relationship is working more than well ,as well as being honest and respectful about myself and my partners needs, I think the Love that is ministered at anyone time does needs to be situation appropriate ,children do need direction ,we all do ,but the underlying core of all things seems best viewed with unconditional love because then it will have the divine power of empathy behind it....and God...whether that compassion is for self or other always hoping for the best outcome for all..

[windywherever]

Hi Deepsoul. Thanks for sharing your personal experiences. I'm glad things are working out for you and your husband.

However, when you put the word "unconditional" in there, it actually undermines all the hard work you put in to making the relationship work.

its taking a lot of forgiveness acceptance ,brutal honesty, and love to rebuild what was always there

Unconditional love means these things are unnecessary. "Love" is a general term used to describe all these various conditions which must be met in order for the behavior to be love. For example, if you refuse to forgive your husband, if you lie to him and you refuse to accept his efforts, then will the behavior still reflect love?

If people hurt one another, if they are impatient and they insult one another, is it still love? No, that's why we have a word like hate. It is the opposite of love. Without conditions there is no way to distinguish between these two words.

Unconditional love is so popular because it provides a convenient way to ignore problems rather than confronting them. A condition of forgiveness is that there must be some acknowledgement of wrong doing. For forgiveness to have meaning, there must be something to forgive. If there is no condition to distinguish behavior which is UNloving, then there is no way to discern if forgiveness is needed for the unloving behavior.

Condition-less love is particularly useful when it comes to our relationship with God. Jesus gave a lot of instructions on what we should and should not do in life. They are standards which God expects us to follow. But unconditional love takes away those expectations. It makes standards meaningless because, no matter how we behave, God loves us "unconditionally".

People become free to make their own standards on how they want to live, regardless of whether they are consistent with what God wants or does not want. How convenient.

Imagine your husband arguing that he has nothing to apologize for. Imagine him arguing that he should be free to behave in any way he wants without any pressure from you if there is disagreement, and all because your love must be without any condition. As soon as you object to his behavior, you start putting conditions on what you expect from the relationship.

[SeaZen]

Originally Posted by windywherever

In my brief time here I've noticed quite a few references to the phrase, "unconditional love." I'd like to add a few comments on this issue.

I hate to be a spoil sport, but someone needs to explain that there is no such thing as "unconditional" love. It's a myth.

It may be that some people have used the term incorrectly to describe something else that is genuine, but the idea that love just pours out in all directions with no restrictions, no discretion, and no limits is just not on. Worse than that, the term "unconditional love" has been used in such a way by many people as to devalue or even condemn genuine love.

A common example of unconditional love is the love of a mother for her children. But they overlook that the first "condition" for such love is that they must be her children. It may not even be a fair condition if it leads to injustices for people who are not her children.

Let's compare the mother to God. Many people claim that the concept of unconditional love comes from God, who loves everybody and who loves infinitely. We are all his "children", so we could say that God (because he is so much greater than us) has the kind of love that a mother has for just a few people (i.e. for her children), except that God has this infinite (unconditional) love for everyone.

But what happens when one of God's children hurts another one of his children? What if the offender does so deliberately and cruelly and repeatedly? Does God say, "It doesn't matter. You are my child, and I love you unconditionally?"

No. God cannot do that without becoming unloving toward the child who is suffering. God must speak up and condemn the behaviour of the errant child. His "love" involves rules, and it also involves punishment for people who break the rules.

Technically, God still loves the sinner even when he is meting out punishment, and in that sense his love is not conditional. But his "love" is expressed in a way that is not usually covered by the fairly recent term "unconditional love". The term "unconditional love" was invented to describe a kind of love that refuses to pass judgment.

Long before the term "unconditional love" was coined we already had the concept of forgiveness (which always implied some kind of repentance as a condition for receiving it); but people were not happy with that. They wanted a God who was indifferent even to the sin, and especially to whether or not a person repents.

That was when Lucifer came along with his doctrine of unconditional love. He pretended to have something better than what God was offering. God wanted you to show some sorrow for your behaviour, to turn around, to make restitution, to change. But Lucifer said that you could have his friendship and still go on breaking as many rules as you like, without him passing judgment on you. He would love you "unconditionally". See how diabolically clever it is? It sounds so much better than what God was offering. It is so much easier than finding forgiveness through repentance.

But it's a lie.

Look at the bigger picture in all of these situations where people preach (and try to practise) unconditional love. Their families break up; their marriages collapse; their relationships with others remain superficial and flat, often masking selfish indifference.

It's easy to be "unconditional" with someone that you don't really care about. Professional social workers and psychologists are the world's experts at this. They'll listen to you with an apparently non-judgmental ear until your scheduled appointment is up, and then you'll go away thinking well of them. "Why can't my family and friends be as non-judgmental?" you'll ask yourself. But the answer is probably because your family and friends have an emotional investment in you that goes beyond a scheduled appointment. This investment makes them shout their disagreement when they see you doing things that may hurt them and you both.

It probably would be good if your family and friends could be more patient, more forgiving, and more sympathetic to your point of view. But do not assume that the professional distance of social workers and counsellors represents greater "love" than these other people have for you.

The Bible says, "Those whom the Lord loves, he chastens... And if he does not chastise you, then he is treating you as a ******* and not as a son or daughter." (Hebrews 12:6-8) It goes on to say that no rebuke or correction is pleasant at the time that we receive it. But if we will recognise the truth in a correction, and if we will act on it, we will be happier in the long run. (Hebrews 12:11)

By taking heed to the conditions of discipleship that Jesus has prescribed for us, we can find life in all its fullness. Over and over we read that great "conditional" word "if" in the Bible. And if we meet the conditions, the truth can set us free (John 8:31-32), if we meet the conditions, we can have fellowship one with another (1 John 1:7), if we meet the conditions, he will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9), and if we meet the conditions, we can ask for what we want, and God will give it to us (John 15:7). Everywhere you look in the Bible, you will find exceeding great and precious promises. But they almost all have conditions attached to them. Look for the word "if" and you will see that it appears before almost every promise.

Follow the conditions, and you'll discover all the blessings and wonders of true love, which is God's love. Ignore the conditions, and you will have nothing but regrets. This is the message of true love. It's not as popular as the message of "unconditional love", but it is the truth.

You are using HUMAN logic, reasoning, rules, conditions and absolutes and applying them to god. In other words, you are "humanizing" god. You have described how HUMANS think and act towards one another and it is quite a stretch on your part to apply that human reasoning, logic, action and standards to the creator of the universe. There is so much we do not know and to make the claims you do are specious at best.

Oh yeah...there is one earthly example of unconditional love that you failed to mention. The unconditional love a dog has for its companion human.

Since I arrived on this section of the forum I've felt disturbed at what appears to be quite an anti-god spirit. In other sections of the forum, fine. But here, in the Christianity section, God is the boss.

I believe in being open and I believe in being accepting of other viewpoints from my own but what's happening here (and God knows for how long) is a take-over of the Christian section by people who really have no interest in God's authority. His love? sure, people like that. But his right to make demands? To make standards? To expect accountability and to dish out consequences/ punishments for not meeting those standards? Nope. That kind of God is a bad guy.

How can it be a takeover or "anti god" spirit for that matter? Others have different opinions about what christianity is and what it means to them. There are those who believe in God and Jesus but do not believe in a being called the devil and and an eternal place of torture called hell. That doesn't make them "anti god". All viewpoints are allowed here. This is NOT the "traditional christianity" section. Even if it were, there are so many different points of view even among "traditional" christians e.g. the snake handlers, the catholics, the westboro baptist church, those who do and do not believe in original sin etc. etc. that to present one's own point of view as being the "right" one is a stretch. If you find this disturbing, then I would highly recommend you find a christian forum more conducive to your views elsewhere on the internet.