initiation process without a master/teacher.

One has to be a bit careful with "finding a teacher." It's often said that when you're ready a teacher will appear - assuming you've done enough to make yourself ready which in turn assumes you've some idea of what your path should be.

The ideal teacher is the kind Starman mentioned;

I had a guru who introduced me to my inner teacher and without that external teacher it might have taken me longer to connect with my inner teacher; the initiation process which I went through with my external teacher, or guru, was a very humbling experience which prepared me to dive deeper within my own being.

.
Mine was similar and was fairly clear that, well, paraphrasing it, he could start me on the way but ultimately my path was my own - and so it has been. Any guru worth his salt would be the same unless they're training you up to take over when they pass on. They can teach you beliefs, they can inculcate beliefs or they can help you formulate your own beliefs; help you interpret the signposts; help you to spot what to avoid.... And perhaps with some extreme experiences, to look after you as you go through them.

Be careful money isn't demanded of you. It's easy for the vulnerable seeker to fall for a con. You should be bold enough to question as you go. (Certainly on the web there are some frightful cons!) If you instinctively feel things aren't quite right then it's time to move on.

But you can self-initiate. I'd confess that my teacher probably contributed to one of the big ones but it occurred after he decided he'd done all he could. There may be many initiations.

[bees]

Originally Posted by django

I have yet to find a living teacher who has achieved what I want to achieve, though I feel such teachers have existed a couple of times in the past.

I believe all current teachers pass on their flawed and limited ways, and I am better off starting with a clean slate and finding the way myself, whilst reading the recorded words of the couple of teachers that have achieved what I would consider to be the true goal.

What can I do about doubts? Some days I'm plagued with doubts about the practice or my own progress, or the teacher.

Answer: Doubting is natural. Everyone starts out with doubts. You can learn a great deal from them. What is important is that you don't identify with your doubts: that is, don't get caught up in them. This will spin your mind in endless circles. Instead, watch the whole process of doubting, of wondering. See who it is that doubts. See how doubts come and go. Then you will no longer be victimized by your doubts. You will step outside of them and your mind will be quiet. You can see how all things come and go. Just let go of what you are attached to. Let go of your doubts and simply watch. This is how to end doubting.

Q: If putting everything together in our bowls is important, why don't you as a teacher do it yourself? Don't you feel it is important for the teacher to set an example?

Answer: Yes, it is true, a teacher should set an example for his disciples. I don't mind that you criticize me. Ask whatever you wish. But it is important that you do not cling to the teacher. If I were absolutely perfect in outward form, it would be terrible. You would all be too attached to me. Even the Buddha would sometimes tell his disciples to do one thing and then do another himself. Your doubts in your teacher can help you. You should watch your own reactions. Do you think it is possible that I keep some food out of my bowl in dishes to feed the laymen who work around the temple? Wisdom is for yourself to watch and develop. Take from the teacher what is good. Be aware of your own practice. If I am resting while you must all sit up, does this make you angry? If I call the color blue red or say that male is female, don't follow me blindly. One of my teachers ate very fast. He made noises as he ate. Yet he told us to eat slowly and mindfully. I used to watch him and get very upset. I suffered, but he didn't! I watched the outside. Later I learned. Some people drive very fast but carefully. Others drive slowly and have many accidents. Don't cling to rules, to outer form. If you watch others at most ten percent of the time and watch yourself ninety percent, this is the proper practice. At first I used to watch my teacher Ajahn Tong Raht and had many doubts. People even thought he was mad. He would do strange things or get very fierce with his disciples. Outside he was angry, but inside there was nothing. Nobody there. He was remarkable. He stayed clear and mindful until the moment he died. Looking outside the self is comparing, discriminating. You will not find happiness that way. Nor will you find peace if you spend your time looking for the perfect man or the perfect teacher. The Buddha taught us to look at the Dhamma, the truth, not to look at other people.

http://www.buddhanet.net/bodhiny2.htm

[django]

Originally Posted by bees

What can I do about doubts? Some days I'm plagued with doubts about the practice or my own progress, or the teacher.

Answer: Doubting is natural. Everyone starts out with doubts. You can learn a great deal from them. What is important is that you don't identify with your doubts: that is, don't get caught up in them. This will spin your mind in endless circles. Instead, watch the whole process of doubting, of wondering. See who it is that doubts. See how doubts come and go. Then you will no longer be victimized by your doubts. You will step outside of them and your mind will be quiet. You can see how all things come and go. Just let go of what you are attached to. Let go of your doubts and simply watch. This is how to end doubting.

Q: If putting everything together in our bowls is important, why don't you as a teacher do it yourself? Don't you feel it is important for the teacher to set an example?

Answer: Yes, it is true, a teacher should set an example for his disciples. I don't mind that you criticize me. Ask whatever you wish. But it is important that you do not cling to the teacher. If I were absolutely perfect in outward form, it would be terrible. You would all be too attached to me. Even the Buddha would sometimes tell his disciples to do one thing and then do another himself. Your doubts in your teacher can help you. You should watch your own reactions. Do you think it is possible that I keep some food out of my bowl in dishes to feed the laymen who work around the temple? Wisdom is for yourself to watch and develop. Take from the teacher what is good. Be aware of your own practice. If I am resting while you must all sit up, does this make you angry? If I call the color blue red or say that male is female, don't follow me blindly. One of my teachers ate very fast. He made noises as he ate. Yet he told us to eat slowly and mindfully. I used to watch him and get very upset. I suffered, but he didn't! I watched the outside. Later I learned. Some people drive very fast but carefully. Others drive slowly and have many accidents. Don't cling to rules, to outer form. If you watch others at most ten percent of the time and watch yourself ninety percent, this is the proper practice. At first I used to watch my teacher Ajahn Tong Raht and had many doubts. People even thought he was mad. He would do strange things or get very fierce with his disciples. Outside he was angry, but inside there was nothing. Nobody there. He was remarkable. He stayed clear and mindful until the moment he died. Looking outside the self is comparing, discriminating. You will not find happiness that way. Nor will you find peace if you spend your time looking for the perfect man or the perfect teacher. The Buddha taught us to look at the Dhamma, the truth, not to look at other people.

http://www.buddhanet.net/bodhiny2.htm

I value my doubts, I trust that they may warn me that the person who is speaking who calls themselves a teacher may not be up to the job. To ignore this doubt and trust anyway is to potentially destroy my relationship with my own intuition.

One of the stages in Hinduism is developing discernment, which is the complete opposite to my mind of letting go of doubts . Learning to discern the truth or lack of it in another person's claims. And this same discernment is used to discover Maya in my self.

[wstein]

Originally Posted by A peaceful mind.

Why do some people start their initiation process without a master/teacher.

Usually some start it with the help from their teachers, this is the more common way, but my question is why do some start it without?

Several reasons come to mind:
-initiation is not required for everyone (possibly anyone)
-some may not have met a master/teacher but realize that some information is available through other channels and see no need to wait
-some people are just ignorant, defiant, or misguided and mistakenly start something hey can't finish (without help)
-some perceive they are headed to somewhere none have mastered yet, so they have to pioneer it themselves
-some are able to bypass the mistaken idea that we are not already masters but still want to play the game anyway

[Heart]

I had to learn the 'hard way'

That is...... Making thousands of mistakes 'trying' to understand who and what this thing is we call being-human as a human-being while remaining essentially an unlimited spirit in a limited body. Trying to find those unreachable parts that are beyond the comprehension of the mind and sencing things that are in between the unknown

It is the pervbrial spiritual needle we look for in the worldly haystack of infinite possibilities

In all that time of self learning only a very few events have lead I to find someone to bounce ideas off they do not appear a master or guru
The student Learns to find his own path with the guidance of the master. The Master confirms his own path of self learning by opening up to those who seek there's both benefit from the exchange now..,...

What is it we are all doing on this forum? Exchanging. Smile

[django]

9 Ways to Spot a Fake Guru or Spiritual Teacher


http://wakeup-world.com/2013/12/09/9...itual-teacher/

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by django

I have yet to find a living teacher who has achieved what I want to achieve....

That was a very sad sentence for me to read...
and I do not feel 'sad' often.

Maybe I should have not posted this...but it effected me.

[bees]

Originally Posted by django

I value my doubts, I trust that they may warn me that the person who is speaking who calls themselves a teacher may not be up to the job. To ignore this doubt and trust anyway is to potentially destroy my relationship with my own intuition.

One of the stages in Hinduism is developing discernment, which is the complete opposite to my mind of letting go of doubts . Learning to discern the truth or lack of it in another person's claims. And this same discernment is used to discover Maya in my self.

A valiant intellectual approach.

[bees]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

That was a very sad sentence for me to read...
and I do not feel 'sad' often.

Maybe I should have not posted this...but it effected me.

...........

[Miss Hepburn]

This is very important bees.
I mean, to find someone that has what you want.
And then can help you , guide you, to your Goal.


Very special relationship.