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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Science & Spirituality

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  #91  
Old 19-09-2017, 04:33 PM
Morpheus Morpheus is offline
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Regarding the o.p., and the question.

Science has come to the understanding today that space/time is illusory.

Do we have free will? Yes and no. We need to see things in the bigger context.
In quantum physics we see that two apparently contradictory issues can both be correct.
We have free will, but in the bigger context of eternity, infinity or the timeless, what we will freely do in the "future", is known.

Biblical prophecy also is confirmation of this.
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"I believe there are two sides to the phenomena known as death. This side where we live, and the other side, where we shall continue to live.
Eternity does not start with death.
We are in eternity now." - Norman Vincent Peale

"There is no place in this new kind of physics for both the field and matter, for the field is the only reality." - A. Einstein
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  #92  
Old 19-09-2017, 04:48 PM
Aaron Lowe Aaron Lowe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morpheus
Do we have free will? Yes and no. We need to see things in the bigger context.
In quantum physics we see that two apparently contradictory issues can both be correct.
We have free will, but in the bigger context of eternity, infinity or the timeless, what we will freely do in the "future", is known.
Imagine there is a pillar of stone called Free Will. Off in the distance is another pillar of stone called Predestination.

As you approach either pillar they seem to get bigger until the point that they completely block out everything else.

Depending on our perspective it may seem that free will or predestination are more or less real. But this is, in itself, an illusion.
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  #93  
Old 19-09-2017, 07:00 PM
bartholomew bartholomew is offline
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Free Will

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morpheus
Regarding the o.p., and the question.

Science has come to the understanding today that space/time is illusory.

Do we have free will? Yes and no. We need to see things in the bigger context.
In quantum physics we see that two apparently contradictory issues can both be correct.
We have free will, but in the bigger context of eternity, infinity or the timeless, what we will freely do in the "future", is known.

Biblical prophecy also is confirmation of this.


Here is the lowest, the most dense of the planes of existence (think of these as dimensions) space is coarse and heavy therefore time is very fast. As we progress upwards through the various subtle (spiritual) planes matter (not physical matter but the matter of each plane) is finer and finer. When we finally arrive at the highest plane, where the creator (God) is we find that there is no "matter" at all (again this is NOT physical plane matter but spiritual matter). Since there is no matter there is no time. This is the meaning of "eternity". Eternity is NOT an endless progression of time. Rather it is an existence wherein time does not exist (because there is no matter of which time is but an effect).

Now we are poised to understand how and why it is that we have free will yet God already knows how we will choose. This seeming contradiction is simply because of perspective. We are in the heavy physical. God is "in" the highest plane which is timeless. We experience time. God simply "is". For God there is no progression of time. There is only the "present". Our brains are not adequate to understanding this. The matematics of the third dimension will not do. When science finally recognizes the subtle worlds it will be through a new mathematics which will be unlike any that we have now. Quantum physics brings us to the edge, the barrier between physical and spiritual but it will go no further. Why? Because it seeks to resolve the non physical in physical terms.

It is an error to refer to these things as being "illusive". They are not. From within any one dimension reality is firm and hard. It is only when we seek to observe another dimension from our usual one that we need such terms.

Finally is the question of "truth". Truth is fluid. As we progress through the dimensions we find that what we did believe is now inadequate. Each spiritual plane has it's own set of "truths". It is essential that we recognize this and not try to define the highest planes in physical terms. This inclination, along with our current mathematical methods, will have to be set aside before higher understandings will move from matters of beliefs and faith into the area of firm knowing.

When Jesus said "the Father and I are one" and "Before ......... was, I am" he was referring specifically to the differentials which exist in the various planes of existence. There is much esoteria contained in the Bible and in most other religious texts too. This is because the minds of men, on occasion, achieve access and, for a time, suddenly realize greater truths, the truths which are a part of higher dimensions and they write about them for other men to read. Sometimes the mind will be a religious person. Sometimes the mind will be scientist. This is why I claim that our future understanding relys on the two, science and religion, merging into a new model of knowledge. Traditional science takes us back to the moment of creation and calls it the big bang. Religion takes us further back and speaks of causes. Religion knows of the higher dimensions but science will someday fully define them. There are no arguments 'tween the two but only great misunderstandings based on lack of vision.
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  #94  
Old 19-09-2017, 07:23 PM
Aaron Lowe Aaron Lowe is offline
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I think we need to remind ourselves what the word illusion means. It does not mean false or fake.

Reality - that which is what it seems to be.
Illusion - that which is NOT what it seems to be.

The key word is seems. This is directly linked to perspective.

Imagine I'm holding up a green sphere (from my perspective), but from your perspective, it is blue.

I say, the sphere is green. You say, it's blue. We are not in contradiction. It is both green AND blue.
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  #95  
Old 19-09-2017, 09:00 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winter light
We only have the free will to change our attention and project a sense of self. But even in this it may be distracted we are by circumstances or limited by our conditioning, which is yet another circumstance. The more will we project the more we become defined by circumstance. So free will in this regard is literally self-limiting.

Free will in the material sense is based on a perception of self involving memory of the past and projection into the future in relation to self and circumstance. There is no influence on the material world in the present except for a careful balance which can only exist as long as ones attention and one's sense of self are surrendered to present action of the whole. Free will from the separate self is only real as it is an extension of the whole and any causes as though from a separate self only exist as illusion.

Just want to say...one of the best movies ever.

On the rest, free will gets "overthought" a lot. Why is it overthought so much? Why so much wrangling? Why so much focus on the Isness as purity of oneness and emptiness and not as individuated love in being, when emptiness is not where we majority live nor are intended to majority live in this, our incarnated reality?

A lion's share of it IMO is resistance of the natural progression toward our own centres, the natural call to be and do love as ownership and equanimity on our own journey. The journey of our own individuated consciousness.

As Bartholomew says, our reality exists within its own dimensional paradigm. What is means is that for now, be here now. For now, be love now.

And that means, above all else, ownership and equanimity. That's what free will is, at this time and in this place in being here now. Folks have a lot of trouble with that, some of them. Until one day, somewhere, sometime, they don't.

Peace & blessings
7L
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Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #96  
Old 20-09-2017, 02:37 AM
winter light winter light is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
Just want to say...one of the best movies ever.

On the rest, free will gets "overthought" a lot. Why is it overthought so much? Why so much wrangling? Why so much focus on the Isness as purity of oneness and emptiness and not as individuated love in being, when emptiness is not where we majority live nor are intended to majority live in this, our incarnated reality?

A lion's share of it IMO is resistance of the natural progression toward our own centres, the natural call to be and do love as ownership and equanimity on our own journey. The journey of our own individuated consciousness.

As Bartholomew says, our reality exists within its own dimensional paradigm. What is means is that for now, be here now. For now, be love now.

And that means, above all else, ownership and equanimity. That's what free will is, at this time and in this place in being here now. Folks have a lot of trouble with that, some of them. Until one day, somewhere, sometime, they don't.

Peace & blessings
7L
I think the wrangling you are sensing is personal. A symptom and symbol of my own struggles to reconcile my existence in the world. Too complex to go into right now. And some of the wrangling is just me trying to form words to capture the essence of things. For the sake of discussion and sharing.

I realized that my struggles occur whenever I am focused on myself in relationship to everything else. If I focus on myself as the doer I am lost or if I focus on how my actions will affect me I am also lost. When I just express my true self there is no self-focus and there is no struggle. And there is no conflict as I move as an individual while at the same time in perfect harmony with the whole.

What you see as emptiness is not as empty as it appears and I was coming from a deeper place, not as a denial of the world, if that is what you mean, but rather from a place of wholeness. Equanimity is a useful word to identify the inner feeling of harmony that tells us when we are on the right track and in balance with everything.

At my best I am an artist who gives myself completely to the moment. Whether it be being with another or an act of creativity. I am in complete devotion to the life in front of me. The complete surrender paradoxically leaves a pure expression of individuality.
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  #97  
Old 20-09-2017, 02:50 AM
winter light winter light is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
Just want to say...one of the best movies ever.
7L
Yes definitely one of the best movies ever. The ministers of the city expressed unconditional love so purely as I have never seen anywhere else.
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  #98  
Old 20-09-2017, 06:42 AM
Morpheus Morpheus is offline
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Bartholomew's explanation is very reasonable.
As well, we can see how the denser material world, percieved, is the "Construct", with respect to the unpercieved atomic, and sub atomic realms.
Eventually to where the source is seen as energy, involving Light.
Frequency, vibration, resonance.

Light is more and other than what we can percieve with the limited physical and organic senses.
True?6

Aaron also makes a good point, involving perspective.

Ian77, there is a problem with relegating Life to merely the denser material and organic situation.
Life is more than "this", and we are more and other than this evolved situation in time and space.
Aging, decay, and death came to all species in the world after a fall. Not to just humanity.
Which also gives us understanding of the nature of the material world as illusory.
The "construct" and lesser reality, in comparison with the greater, and timeless.
__________________
"I believe there are two sides to the phenomena known as death. This side where we live, and the other side, where we shall continue to live.
Eternity does not start with death.
We are in eternity now." - Norman Vincent Peale

"There is no place in this new kind of physics for both the field and matter, for the field is the only reality." - A. Einstein
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  #99  
Old 20-09-2017, 02:21 PM
Kioma Kioma is offline
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IMO, yes we have free will, but it is a shared universe, so the actions we can take and events we can shape are limited.

Because it is a shared universe - we share it with each other, with all life, and of course with all matter - events are subject to force and what I call 'inertia'. Inertia in this context refers to the attributes of an event or impending event, which we can shape through our actions, but are also subject to shaping by the rest of the universe as well.

Generally, the more inertia an impending event has, the less affectable it becomes. So an impending event with a very strong inertia is not easily affected by our actions, or may even be immune to our actions. An event with very low inertia will be easily affected by our actions. And events are also affectable or not according to all the regular attributes as well - our knowledge, proximity, capabilities, etc..
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  #100  
Old 25-09-2017, 03:46 AM
winter light winter light is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kioma
IMO, yes we have free will, but it is a shared universe, so the actions we can take and events we can shape are limited.

Because it is a shared universe - we share it with each other, with all life, and of course with all matter - events are subject to force and what I call 'inertia'. Inertia in this context refers to the attributes of an event or impending event, which we can shape through our actions, but are also subject to shaping by the rest of the universe as well.

Generally, the more inertia an impending event has, the less affectable it becomes. So an impending event with a very strong inertia is not easily affected by our actions, or may even be immune to our actions. An event with very low inertia will be easily affected by our actions. And events are also affectable or not according to all the regular attributes as well - our knowledge, proximity, capabilities, etc..
The inertia of the collective is definitely a factor in how easy it is to change things. Rupert Sheldrake has a lot of good thoughts about how the universe has "habits" down to the material level.

The other major factor from within is incongruence. When we are unconsciously conflicted when asking the universe for one thing while at the same time sending messages for something else. The universe either responds to the unconscious if it is strong or it may just respond with chaos instead of what we think we want. That is why in order for the will to function properly it is important to work on the our inner issues so that we can function in harmony with our self and the universe.
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