ahh!!!! lol identity crisis after spirtual awakening

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

Interesting reply. To answer the point you're making: No, recognizing life as process doesn't mean we have to be moral relativists. Although morals and values change, this does not mean we abandon them completely. We are not mere observers, but living the game as well. I do believe some morals and values are better than other. As an example, I prefer a liberal society over Islamic sharia. I find murder, rape, and torture ''bad'' in the sense that it causes unnecessary suffering, suffering that we could prevent.
We don't need gods or a belief in karma to have morals. Empathy is part of our nature.

I also dont think that I have abandoned values, for example I tend to value peace more than I do conflict, though there are times when it seems I value conflict more than I do peace!

So, even though you have values/morals such as finding murder bad, do you think its an absolute value/moral, or is it your own moral? i.e are you saying that you tend to see it as bad in your system of values, or are you saying its 'absolutely' bad? If its an absolute value/moral, what is this absolute?

I agree that empathy is part of our nature, which adds an interesting dynamic to this whole thing. What would you say empathy gives us a knowing of exactly?

[Chrysaetos]

Originally Posted by andrew g

So, even though you have values/morals such as finding murder bad, do you think its an absolute value/moral, or is it your own moral? i.e are you saying that you tend to see it as bad in your system of values, or are you saying its 'absolutely' bad? If its an absolute value/moral, what is this absolute?

It can be seen as absolutely bad, but not necessarily in any godly sense.

Morals are partly based on our outer influences but at the same time we use them as we see fit. We are influenced and made by these factors but at the same time we make them. But humans are also influencing one another so there are no ''6 billion'' views or anything like that. There is no ''my system of values'' or ''my truth and your truth''.

Originally Posted by Andrew g

I agree that empathy is part of our nature, which adds an interesting dynamic to this whole thing. What would you say empathy gives us a knowing of exactly?

A knowing and caring of the suffering and pain of other beings.

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

It can be seen as absolutely bad, but not necessarily in any godly sense.

Ok, if its not in a godly sense, what sense is it absolutely bad? Perhaps it might help me to understand if you clarify what you mean by 'bad'...? Do you mean 'wrong'?

Morals are partly based on our outer influences but at the same time we use them as we see fit. We are influenced and made by these factors but at the same time we make them. But humans are also influencing one another so there are no ''6 billion'' views or anything like that. There is no ''my system of values'' or ''my truth and your truth''.

I very much agree we are influencing each other, but I would say that we do tend to each hold some beliefs quite rigidly which form a sytem of values.

A knowing and caring of the suffering and pain of other beings.

I agree that there is a knowing of the suffering and pain of others.Would you say there is also a knowing of the love and joy of others? Or is the empathy limited to the suffering and pain?

Just to clarify my position, I would say there is an inner knowing or empathy of love and joy just as much as there is the suffering and pain. So I would say the inherent knowledge or inner knowing is that some actions take us closer towards the Source of life (which is love) and some actions take us more deeply into duality and the relative nature of life (suffering and pain).

[Chrysaetos]

Originally Posted by andrew g

I agree that there is a knowing of the suffering and pain of others.Would you say there is also a knowing of the love and joy of others? Or is the empathy limited to the suffering and pain?

There is a difference between empathy and sympathy, humans have both.

Even though suffering is a natural part of this world, I think we should strive to reduce it there where we can, or we get a complete anarchistic society in which the rapist and murderer become heroes. We just have empathy and sympathy. I think I know what you're getting at though, teleology?

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

There is a difference between empathy and sympathy, humans have both.

Even though suffering is a natural part of this world, I think we should strive to reduce it there where we can, or we get a complete anarchistic society in which the rapist and murderer become heroes. We just have empathy and sympathy. I think I know what you're getting at though, teleology?

I agree that empathy and sympathy are subtlely different. I think the first is an innateness, the second is more of a behaviour.

Im gonna have to go and look up what teleology this time, coz thats the second time you've mentioned it!

I think in our own unique and often bizarre ways we are all trying to reduce the suffering in our lives. The question is....what is the most effective way? At an individual level, what is the cause of the suffering?

Would you agree that a person who is at peace wouldnt murder or rape except in a very very strange set of circumstances?

Okay, I just looked it up and had a brief read (though it doesnt look like something that is easy to read briefly!) but I would say I am teleogical in that I think the ever changing movement of creation comes from an unchanging stillness of source (and returns to a source) and that it is through creation that source is able to experience itself.

Since you are talking about empathy and sympathy, how about compassion and pity? Personally, I'm not a fan of pity at all. To me, it seems to have a feeling of hopelessness that goes with it.

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by LaMont Cranston

Since you are talking about empathy and sympathy, how about compassion and pity? Personally, I'm not a fan of pity at all. To me, it seems to have a feeling of hopelessness that goes with it.

Im not into 'pity' either Mr. C.

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

Compassion and empathy are functional and healthy. Pity is not , because it is like saying you are better and the other person is less-than. It's not recognizing and acknowledging the other person as a master , thinking that their spirit can't care for them , and them seeing themselves that way is why they are where they are , basically. The universe loves you so much that it conforms to fit your pictures of reality, so the saying goes .

D

Originally Posted by Dar

oh yeah ! it was shocking when I realized that particular thing was true about myself too. we're so used to thinking that bad things are only bad and we'd be better off if they never happened to us, but they were all part of the means that led to the end , and the end I ended up with was not one I could see happening any other way given my circumstances , and is definitely and end I wanted to end up with, given my circumstances , so , ultimately it is justified. even being sort of a victim of circumstance (lacking the control you mention) is sometimes all we can manage, but where we end up, where we're going, that's what's important, not how it may look to us while we're in the middle of some weird looking junk .

D

Existence is a state. A seed cannot plant itself, just as an egg cannot hatch itself.