Buddhism as a practice.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

The text or the narrative or conversation can be taken as something which you 'check for yourself', and that's the level I want to communicate on or consider Buddha's teachings as they are written. I mean there is the 'knowing of nature' and there is also the way in which that is understood in symbols or signs like this language. But there can be different stories which mean the same thing, and different ways of understanding may be unique to each of us.

Yes, I kind of look at this from something my brother mentioned to us before his passing when he came to the realization that all paths lead to the same place. If one is aware and noticing themselves to that degree, you will understand them in this way. I don't think he meant a place as in a fixed place, more a point of understanding the deeper more subtle nature of life, interconnected.

Indeed, so long as it is noticed, then fine - you know, notice and transform go together.

Yes that is true.

I love a deliberate practice, and the day to day is better when I maintain that in my routine, but I'm pretty disorganised, and I'm not as diligent as I once was. I think weight training took over my diligence.

Yes deliberate practice works for me too. Routines are harder for me to maintain, so a balance of both routine and more spontaneous flow eases up on the extreme and more a middle path of balance.

I deadlifted 100 kilos last time, and I like watching these numbers go up.

Wowzers, that's a big lift. Well done.

Ok, because taking breath as an 'object of focus' is hard to do, and it's not the 'right way' in my book. This forces people to 'concentrate' and 'hold attention', which isn't going to be deeply effective. The trick is to feel it at or underneath the nose somewhere, and try to feel the most subtle aspects of that feeling as you can in detail. This actually requires very close attention, as opposed trying to stay focused. In my own breath awareness I feel a very small spot on the tip of my lip where the air passes over, and I see the details of that feeling in small area no larger than a pea. If my focus is right on, I can feel an area as small as a pinhead which the air touches on, and some details moving in that. That took a lot of practice, and it requires close attention, which is always feeling for a finer nuance of sensation. The mind does this as its natural function. It rests on something quite gross, and divides it into subtle parts, and divides those subtle parts again, and then again, making an ever more detailed perception. If one just sits and watches, feeling whatever they can, the mind will automatically go about dividing it in this way. IOW, you watch and Dhamma does the rest.

Thanks for sharing this, it was informative and something worth noting in the practice. It sounds like a very concentrated effort and focus but one that you show builds close attention deeper and in more expanded ways that I could imagine.

That's exactly how it works - to reveal what people have secreted and hidden, so it doesn't really have much to do with the breath itself, but I guess the breath is a cool gateway to the beginnings self discovery.

Most run into such issues, their own agitation and impatience and so forth, and they find it 'distracting' because they think that are supposed to 'focus on breath', but really, this is more to do with 'stop and look', and the body mind goes into revolt and creates 'distractions'.

Of course the mind will wander away, but that's just how the mind is. It follows whatever it's interested in. This matters not, at some point you realise mind wandered off the task, so you resume that breath observation - the mind is just as sharp when you return, unless you lose than calmness, in which case the mind becomes quite dull again. Even that is no problem, as you're like, 'mind is so dull now', and you just go about feeling whatever you can, and the division process resumes.

Now I'm raveing about the breath.

Usually I get argument for the meditation experts, but I only get this stuff from the practice I have already done and there is nothing wrong in it - except I probably bore people with lengthy commentary. teehee.

Again your the experiencer who has learned and it has much to share and show of itself in ways we all can take note of. I think sometimes expert's will want to do things by the book, but I take much from your observation, noticing and experience as your own practice to learn lots. Knowledge educates, experience assimilates all that into another creation which if embraced and integrated becomes is own uniqueness in all that... There is coffee add on right now with will.I.am..I quickly glanced upon it today, rather briefly, it kind of fits what I am saying.

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[Ground]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Perhaps your the one attached to labels as the one noticing all this?

Originally Posted by naturesflow

In what I have come to learn and know of you, sharing, I find your response quite interesting, mainly because in the spontaneous arising in me to both head and share, I would have thought that your "ground of being" would naturally know how to move in this way aware yourself? But perhaps in my spontaneous arising and sharing, you perhaps feel I am not being aware of something I need to be aware of?

you do not expect me to reply to your questions, don't you?

Originally Posted by naturesflow

I am open for you to bring to light any conventions you see fit to place in this thread to inform and show me more?
So feel free to inform me and show me anything to become familiar with if you want too. I don't let one heading define what might spontaneously arise in the whole sharing to show me more...

My posting aims at the appropriate use of labels. Of course if I say "Only a car should be called 'car' but a horse should not be called 'car'." you may conclude that the reason why I am saying this is attachment to labels and then you may wonder if there's something wrong with 'my ground of being'.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Ground

you do not expect me to reply to your questions, don't you?


My posting aims at the appropriate use of labels. Of course if I say "Only a car should be called 'car' but a horse should not be called 'car'." you may conclude that the reason why I am saying this is attachment to labels and then you may wonder if there's something wrong with 'my ground of being'.

As you show labels still apply to your logic that perceives itself as needing to be appropriate at all times..You need to read dr suess me thinks, might help you let go of some of your "perfectly organised mind"

What you just shared right now, reminded me of a time when my little nephew was young and I was doing a photography session with him for his mum. What transpired that day was myself observing him observing himself in nature where we were.. Observing how completely immersed he was in the experience of a butterfly flying all around him, he was smiling, laughing, full of curiosity, frolic and joy in that moment. It was so much fun being in that shared space with him. I was the one doing all the talking to him, (at times, but sometimes I listened and acknowledged what he wanted to convey without words) he couldn't talk you see, so it was lovely just to be immersed in his world for a time, no words, but just be present with him, so in some ways that didn't make his experience be anything but what it was for him more directly. Just smiling and joining in with him as a shared intimate experience without words taught me a big lesson...Of course this is something, you can't always catch on camera to the full extent you as the one sharing with another might understand more directly. So you see direct experience and logic can meet and match up points, but then I am no fool needing to play the fool in this way, because I know other ways and means to interact and not be so "stuffy" ..

What more can I say to a logic based thinker who entertains his own facts, in fact, that's a fact!

(your questioning to my questions is nowhere near as funny and entertaining as dr suess mode at all. So you better try harder, then I might notice it)

[Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Yes, I kind of look at this from something my brother mentioned to us before his passing when he came to the realization that all paths lead to the same place. If one is aware and noticing themselves to that degree, you will understand them in this way. I don't think he meant a place as in a fixed place, more a point of understanding the deeper more subtle nature of life, interconnected.




Yes that is true.





Yes deliberate practice works for me too. Routines are harder for me to maintain, so a balance of both routine and more spontaneous flow eases up on the extreme and more a middle path of balance.



Wowzers, that's a big lift. Well done.




Thanks for sharing this, it was informative and something worth noting in the practice. It sounds like a very concentrated effort and focus but one that you show builds close attention deeper and in more expanded ways that I could imagine.

I just want to clarify if I can a difference between concentrating with effort, and simply being concentrated. When a person tries to concentrate, that's different to 'just watching'. The trying to concentrate is not a 'stop and look' because one is still involved in a high degree of activity by trying to focus. 'Stop and look' in regards to breath meditation is more like a very mild and soft observation, much like one could watch a stream going by.

If the breath is 'an object to focus on', the mind will become interested in other things and wander away, so this doesn't really work properly in breath meditation. The was I suggest is nothing to do with 'focusing on the breath', because one does not add to what is there. The observation is there, the breath is there, so by intending to observe the breath, attention follows.

This is pretty useless unless one is interested in it, though, so its best that the breath is of interest. If it's just some object to focus on, it's not interesting, but if you are interested in exploring it, then you look at it more deeply, and that means feeling the subtle details of the air passing over the skin. This is why the nose and under the nose is used, as that's where air can be felt.

Then you want to know 'what it's like' so you start to explore the myriad of subtle sensations, not by concentrating so hard, but by watching them as the come up.

The watching on breath will bring the minfd to the present, as you can only feel what is present, and being concentrated is basically not being distracted by thinking of past and future, so as you look for the softest feeling which you can possibly feel, the other thoughts fade in the background and the mind becomes concentrated, enabling it to explore more deeply still, and hence the subtlety of this perception reveals even more subtle details than before.

At first the area felt is quite large, like anywhere in the nose of under it. Just feeling that is good enough, and as it becomes easier to feel (which doesn't mean concentrating harder) one might feel a smaller spot somewhere in that region. The reason is, a gross sensation is felt in a large area, and the details that make up the overall sensation are within that area - and therefore occupy a smaller area. After a lot of practice when you feel a peas size area, that's quite an acute perception, and when you can feel that clearly even on the very slightest breath, well, then you're on the money.

The mind does it itself, so you don't try to divide. You just feel it there and let the mind deepen as it is wont to do. Consentration thus isn't something one really tries to do, but the mind becomes concentrated in the absence of distractions.

When a person does take the stop and look approach, the ego false self gets all worked up, so mostly people get all agitated and frustrated as ego comes up in their emotional reactivity. "I don't like this" "I'm not any good at it" "I find it really hard" bla bla bla me my mine and I.

That's OK because you recognise it, and you learn how this negativity isn't just a meditation thing, but it comes up in everyday life all the goddam time... and who needs negativity right?

Because the meditation isn't an 'exercise', but rather, revealing of ones mentalities, it transposes directly into ones regular life, and as one becomes so used to noticing all the nonsense their head comes up with as distraction in meditation sessions, one equally notices it recur at work, in relationships, and so on.

Ok so I don't want meditation experts making a case here, because I'm not the authority who's got the goddam answers. I merely speak as one who undertook meditation in serious and traditional way and tell of the more nuanced aspects in the way I discovered them.

Which is on topic...

Again your the experiencer who has learned and it has much to share and show of itself in ways we all can take note of. I think sometimes expert's will want to do things by the book, but I take much from your observation, noticing and experience as your own practice to learn lots. Knowledge educates, experience assimilates all that into another creation which if embraced and integrated becomes is own uniqueness in all that... There is coffee add on right now with will.I.am..I quickly glanced upon it today, rather briefly, it kind of fits what I am saying.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

I just want to clarify if I can a difference between concentrating with effort, and simply being concentrated. When a person tries to concentrate, that's different to 'just watching'. The trying to concentrate is not a 'stop and look' because one is still involved in a high degree of activity by trying to focus. 'Stop and look' in regards to breath meditation is more like a very mild and soft observation, much like one could watch a stream going by.

Ok. I think I have it more aware now.

If the breath is 'an object to focus on', the mind will become interested in other things and wander away, so this doesn't really work properly in breath meditation. The was I suggest is nothing to do with 'focusing on the breath', because one does not add to what is there. The observation is there, the breath is there, so by intending to observe the breath, attention follows.

I do manage to practice in this way at times and it makes sense..

This is pretty useless unless one is interested in it, though, so its best that the breath is of interest. If it's just some object to focus on, it's not interesting, but if you are interested in exploring it, then you look at it more deeply, and that means feeling the subtle details of the air passing over the skin. This is why the nose and under the nose is used, as that's where air can be felt.

You make it sounds so simple. I can see that in the focus and learning to be aware of my breathing I could be creating a contained breathing space, rather than an open exploring space as your showing, it can be.

Then you want to know 'what it's like' so you start to explore the myriad of subtle sensations, not by concentrating so hard, but by watching them as the come up.

That makes sense.

The watching on breath will bring the minfd to the present, as you can only feel what is present, and being concentrated is basically not being distracted by thinking of past and future, so as you look for the softest feeling which you can possibly feel, the other thoughts fade in the background and the mind becomes concentrated, enabling it to explore more deeply still, and hence the subtlety of this perception reveals even more subtle details than before.

Cool, I beginning to understand something now more closely.

At first the area felt is quite large, like anywhere in the nose of under it. Just feeling that is good enough, and as it becomes easier to feel (which doesn't mean concentrating harder) one might feel a smaller spot somewhere in that region. The reason is, a gross sensation is felt in a large area, and the details that make up the overall sensation are within that area - and therefore occupy a smaller area. After a lot of practice when you feel a peas size area, that's quite an acute perception, and when you can feel that clearly even on the very slightest breath, well, then you're on the money.

Im intrigued by this technique actually, I am not hundred percent connecting yet to how to put it all together, but I am sure it will come to me with some conscious practice and following form this sharing.

The mind does it itself, so you don't try to divide. You just feel it there and let the mind deepen as it is wont to do. Consentration thus isn't something one really tries to do, but the mind becomes concentrated in the absence of distractions.

Ok.

When a person does take the stop and look approach, the ego false self gets all worked up, so mostly people get all agitated and frustrated as ego comes up in their emotional reactivity. "I don't like this" "I'm not any good at it" "I find it really hard" bla bla bla me my mine and I.

Yes most definitely.

That's OK because you recognise it, and you learn how this negativity isn't just a meditation thing, but it comes up in everyday life all the goddam time... and who needs negativity right?

Yes negativity is a good place to practice as I see it and every day life can really open up the awareness and practice in the moment, so you gain through the means your open in yourself to notice and become aware of yourself.

Because the meditation isn't an 'exercise', but rather, revealing of ones mentalities, it transposes directly into ones regular life, and as one becomes so used to noticing all the nonsense their head comes up with as distraction in meditation sessions, one equally notices it recur at work, in relationships, and so on.

Yes true. I don't get too caught up in my own head. Sometimes I do, but not very often. I think within me now there is a developed pause and reflect reflex, which comes from practice. Sometimes I fail miserably but certainly becoming more aware of my whole self inclusive of breath, I have a feeling I can move more consciously even in danger zones..

Ok so I don't want meditation experts making a case here, because I'm not the authority who's got the goddam answers. I merely speak as one who undertook meditation in serious and traditional way and tell of the more nuanced aspects in the way I discovered them.

Its good, your a wealth of information, the ones open to listen and hear, acknowledge that it may contribute something valuable will most likely say. And the others just reading, making no comment, might be practicing their own subtle explorative breath experience that you have provided and shown can benefit us deeper and notice more of ourselves..which is always a good thing in my book.

Which is on topic.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Ok. I think I have it more aware now.



I do manage to practice in this way at times and it makes sense..




You make it sounds so simple. I can see that in the focus and learning to be aware of my breathing I could be creating a contained breathing space, rather than an open exploring space as your showing, it can be.



That makes sense.


Cool, I beginning to understand something now more closely.


Im intrigued by this technique actually, I am not hundred percent connecting yet to how to put it all together, but I am sure it will come to me with some conscious practice and following form this sharing.



Ok.




Yes most definitely.



Yes negativity is a good place to practice as I see it and every day life can really open up the awareness and practice in the moment, so you gain through the means your open in yourself to notice and become aware of yourself.



Yes true. I don't get too caught up in my own head. Sometimes I do, but not very often. I think within me now there is a developed pause and reflect reflex, which comes from practice. Sometimes I fail miserably but certainly becoming more aware of my whole self inclusive of breath, I have a feeling I can move more consciously even in danger zones..



Its good, your a wealth of information, the ones open to listen and hear, acknowledge that it may contribute something valuable will most likely say. And the others just reading, making no comment, might be practicing their own subtle explorative breath experience that you have provided and shown can benefit us deeper and notice more of ourselves..which is always a good thing in my book.

A breath meditation such as that I described starts by feeling anything that can be felt in and under the nose - I mean feeling the air moving as breath there - not just feeling the skin itself. Like maybe the outbreath can be felt slightly warmer than the in breath or something - maybe it feels like one nostril is more open that the other - or whatever it might be. That's all, nothing special about it, just the reality of what can be felt.

If a person practices for one hour in a day, then it might take a month or so to feel a more distinct 'wind-like' sensation. I mean, generally speaking. Of course it varies from person to person.

Usually at the beginning there are times when no air can be felt, especially when the body slows right down and the breath becomes very slight, but no problem - nothing can be felt, so it is. I think breathing a bit harder until you can just feel it for a couple of minutes is a good idea, so you feel something somewhere, and after a minute or two return to normal breathing keeping attention on the felt spot.

As I mentioned, mind will wander off, and that doesn't matter. Wandering away doesn't make it any duller - but making an issue of wandering off does. It wanders off, and really, if the attention stays on the feeling for a minute, that is a long time. People usually expect too much and become disheartened when they find their attention span is very short - but the attention span is very short, and this meditation will reveal just how short it is. A minute is a long time and 30 seconds is good.

It doesn't matter at all that the mind goes a wandering. It does matter if you think it's a problem in the sense that any agitation of the mind makes the mind go duller. Yea, so mind wandered, that's just how it is. Return, wander away, return, wander away, return - It is meant to be like that.

we generally find the wandering away periods get shorter and where a person used to wander away for 5 or 10 minutes, they might only wander away for 3 minutes, but I'd say wandering off for 5 minutes or less is good. This means, for example, attention is on breath for maybe 45 seconds or a minute, wander off for maybe 3-5 minutes, repeat. Something like that is good. If attention is shorter and the wandering longer than that, so what? It is as it is. The only problem is getting frustrated with it in the sense that getting frustrated will dull the mind. Even so, if frustration comes about, it isn't a problem in another sense because it reveals to you that you get frustrated easily and that's probably also the case in day to day life... so you found out this about yourself, which is good!

What was I going to say?... Ok, it's gone.

Anyway, starting out on this which is called anapannasati in Buddhist discourse, is very simple indeed. You feels some aspect of air somewhere in or under the nose and 'just watch'. The mind will divide that automatically, but be realistic, it takes a while, and after a week maybe one will notice a more acute perception coming about.

The ego will want to add something in because it lives on volition (as I spoke before on cessation of volitiion). Common additions are counting breath, controlling breath, visualising 'prana', saying a mantra and so forth. One has to be mindful of the relationship between ego and volition, and not feed that. The ego nature is most likely to get worked up about this. It works more subtly too, creating itches and aches and pains, so as far as is reasonable - if say a itch comes up, let it be there until it goes away - you'll see the ego going crazy with that one! Hahahaha.

No action, no reaction, no volition, all is as it is.

Anyway - feel something there, and as a rule of thumb, you watch while dhamma does its work.

Anyway, a very long blurb, but because it's a topic on practice, and you encouraged me, I went overboard.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

A breath meditation such as that I described starts by feeling anything that can be felt in and under the nose - I mean feeling the air moving as breath there - not just feeling the skin itself. Like maybe the outbreath can be felt slightly warmer than the in breath or something - maybe it feels like one nostril is more open that the other - or whatever it might be. That's all, nothing special about it, just the reality of what can be felt.

If a person practices for one hour in a day, then it might take a month or so to feel a more distinct 'wind-like' sensation. I mean, generally speaking. Of course it varies from person to person.

Usually at the beginning there are times when no air can be felt, especially when the body slows right down and the breath becomes very slight, but no problem - nothing can be felt, so it is. I think breathing a bit harder until you can just feel it for a couple of minutes is a good idea, so you feel something somewhere, and after a minute or two return to normal breathing keeping attention on the felt spot.

As I mentioned, mind will wander off, and that doesn't matter. Wandering away doesn't make it any duller - but making an issue of wandering off does. It wanders off, and really, if the attention stays on the feeling for a minute, that is a long time. People usually expect too much and become disheartened when they find their attention span is very short - but the attention span is very short, and this meditation will reveal just how short it is. A minute is a long time and 30 seconds is good.

It doesn't matter at all that the mind goes a wandering. It does matter if you think it's a problem in the sense that any agitation of the mind makes the mind go duller. Yea, so mind wandered, that's just how it is. Return, wander away, return, wander away, return - It is meant to be like that.

we generally find the wandering away periods get shorter and where a person used to wander away for 5 or 10 minutes, they might only wander away for 3 minutes, but I'd say wandering off for 5 minutes or less is good. This means, for example, attention is on breath for maybe 45 seconds or a minute, wander off for maybe 3-5 minutes, repeat. Something like that is good. If attention is shorter and the wandering longer than that, so what? It is as it is. The only problem is getting frustrated with it in the sense that getting frustrated will dull the mind. Even so, if frustration comes about, it isn't a problem in another sense because it reveals to you that you get frustrated easily and that's probably also the case in day to day life... so you found out this about yourself, which is good!

What was I going to say?... Ok, it's gone.

Anyway, starting out on this which is called anapannasati in Buddhist discourse, is very simple indeed. You feels some aspect of air somewhere in or under the nose and 'just watch'. The mind will divide that automatically, but be realistic, it takes a while, and after a week maybe one will notice a more acute perception coming about.

The ego will want to add something in because it lives on volition (as I spoke before on cessation of volitiion). Common additions are counting breath, controlling breath, visualising 'prana', saying a mantra and so forth. One has to be mindful of the relationship between ego and volition, and not feed that. The ego nature is most likely to get worked up about this. It works more subtly too, creating itches and aches and pains, so as far as is reasonable - if say a itch comes up, let it be there until it goes away - you'll see the ego going crazy with that one! Hahahaha.

No action, no reaction, no volition, all is as it is.

Anyway - feel something there, and as a rule of thumb, you watch while dhamma does its work.

Anyway, a very long blurb, but because it's a topic on practice, and you encouraged me, I went overboard.

Interesting, just reading this again and observing myself as this while reading, I realized that this shifts the whole focus away from the in breath and out breath to what the breath itself is "touching" upon and felt more subtle and with conscious focus in both feeling and awareness. In some ways I realize now that this would develop that ability to stay more present through the "physical" body sensations much like what I described to you in the message I sent. That when the body itself is hit in such a way, like the example I gave. In the chest, expanding, tightening etc as it felt in me, that by shifting focus from a "greater impact" of something in this way in "sensation" I could well shift that away from the "target" it plays out on in me, to a more softer subtle reactionary process, where by you can learn to develop the greater impact in body more holistically, to be less, to be more present and not "infused, targeted" in this way of sensation moving in yourself in reactions.

Of course this would help and benefit this whole issue of body awareness and change in "position" of mind/body more intricately and more open and aware flowing more readily, less contained, less reactive. And of course, this would bring about something new and more, in where my body awareness is now, more conscious of not "inhabiting" old reactions physically as they were, to build a more open clear vessel more holistically, inclusive in this way, more free flowing..

For me right now, even as my emotional body is not contained of itself, It is still showing "affects" of those "bigger" hits from the external as body sensation and reaction, which I identified of course. That shows me that I am still "holding in and onto something" not flowing more freely in this way. So it was a good experience to notice my own reactions moving in me and let go to see more of myself and what I can do to support a more balanced awareness now.

This is a really simple practice too, to be aware of yourself in this way, so it could well be integrated with little effort, jiust a more conscious awareness of your subtle distractions, that can be overlooked when your looking and noticing just the breath moving in and out. This is more conscious awareness of what that "breath" touches upon and activates like those little subtle itches you mentioned, a whole other world really.. I am already going crazy thinking about those itches and not scratching them..hehehe..

Thanks Gem, overboard got me thinking, not sinking..haha

[Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Interesting, just reading this again and observing myself as this while reading, I realized that this shifts the whole focus away from the in breath and out breath to what the breath itself is "touching" upon and felt more subtle and with conscious focus in both feeling and awareness.

Yes, what it touches on in the immediate sense - as sensation - so a breath meditation is actually a sensation meditation, in this case, the sensation where the air touch's the skin.

The other feelings of the emotional kind a what I will simply call, reactions to sensation - this part of the body sensation and the emotional state is a very intricate subject - but suffice to say - everything of the emotional mind (and all thoughts as well) manifest as sensation in ones body - but at this basic stage it is fair to say that as soon as you start this sort of meditation, the purification is on. Basically, when 'you' stop, it starts, and this as I say is 'stop and look'.

One step back, because I said if an itch comes up let it be there until it goes away. Usually our human habit is if something 'unpleasant' happens we don;'t like it and we react. This specific breath work I'm talking about is the cessation of that - I might go into the reasons later on - but because I'm only talking as though readers are like day 1 --- these complexities are for later on for those who practice seriously.

Suffice to say for now that the Buddhist approach is the 'cessation' of dukka, and dukka is 'you' reacting to the senses.

I was reading on another thread of a person who said that 45 minutes is the right amount because a longer period makes the mind unsettled, but usually suggest an hour of sitting, because that last 15 minutes when to mind starts up wontonly is a time when you realise a lot about your own mental dilemmas. This is not a fight against such agitations, it is the acknowledgment of them - that facing of your truth.

Do not fight to 'stay calm' - observe the storm - because that is coming into conscious awareness to be dissolved in the light of your knowing.

Even this it saying to much too soon, because the practice itself has not yet revealed the living experience of which I speak, anf the narrative and the practice go hand in hand, together, and not before the other, so that nothing is led.

In some ways I realize now that this would develop that ability to stay more present through the "physical" body sensations much like what I described to you in the message I sent.

Yes indeed. This is, in fact, a body meditation, but the sensation is in that nose area, and not the whole body. It does lead onto a whole body 'aliveness' but later on.

That when the body itself is hit in such a way, like the example I gave. In the chest, expanding, tightening etc as it felt in me, that by shifting focus from a "greater impact" of something in this way in "sensation" I could well shift that away from the "target" it plays out on in me, to a more softer subtle reactionary process, where by you can learn to develop the greater impact in body more holistically, to be less, to be more present and not "infused, targeted" in this way of sensation moving in yourself in reactions.

That is dead on, but it's for a bit later on, and if a person approached their practice as I described, they will know it when their body starts to 'come alive'. I would suggest after about month of breath - and seriously - everyday for at at least 45 mins - one hour sits are better, and 2 times a day for an hour is awesome for those who really mean it. It is work, not so much an effort, but hard. There is what they call 'right effort' but that also has a very subtle meaning which is not simply 'try hard'.

From starting day, stick with breath sensation, and no matter what else happens in the body, stick with breath. Often times things we read, crown chakra, energies, and so forth get us excited and while breath is noticed as it is, some cool tingling starts on top pf head, and meditator is excited by it, like, wow chakra, and starts going there... but remember, this isn't about feeling things which are easy to feel. This is about feeling what is berely even perceptible, and that's why it is done like this. Don't get distracted by 'wow things' in the body. The ego is just trying to attach with desire, and this mental agitation will make the mind go duller. Besides that head tingle I mentioned came about because of the work on breath, so you stick to breath because it's working.

In the beginning while working on breath, what comes up in the rest of the body can be disregarded entirely. The body will start to come alive soon enough, but that's not why we practice. The practice is high - that awareness with a still balanced mind - and literally everything else is merely consequential to this highest truthful undertaking.

Of course this would help and benefit this whole issue of body awareness and change in "position" of mind/body more intricately and more open and aware flowing more readily, less contained, less reactive.

Exactly. Basically, if you observe reactivity, then 'you' aren't actually reacting. The idea and belief that you were the one reacting is the whole of dukka.

And of course, this would bring about something new and more, in where my body awareness is now, more conscious of not "inhabiting" old reactions physically as they were, to build a more open clear vessel more holistically, inclusive in this way, more free flowing..

Yep, people will see things arising and want to 'heal' them, but I assure you the healing is already the fact that it has risen to conscious awareness. As ones stability of equanimity becomes more established and you're less easily disturbed, then you can endure the very serious storms that have been avoided for a long time, maybe lifetimes.

This isn't 'trying to heal'. 'Trying to heal' is an activity perpetuated by adverse reactivity toward that 'thing' you want to heal. This is about the cessation of precisely that. You are aware, dhamma heals, and this means it makes no difference to you if that thing remains or if it goes away (but of course it goes away because change is how it is). It's simply not your concern. Now you aren't concerned, why problem, right? Before long it will be of no interest, and hence never recur to the mind at all - it'll be like it never even happened anyway.

For me right now, even as my emotional body is not contained of itself, It is still showing "affects" of those "bigger" hits from the external as body sensation and reaction, which I identified of course. That shows me that I am still "holding in and onto something" not flowing more freely in this way. So it was a good experience to notice my own reactions moving in me and let go to see more of myself and what I can do to support a more balanced awareness now.

Exactly... it's a process of the life path , and I guess the pure path IS the path of purification. We're human beings though, so despite all the natter about 'unbounded awareness', well, that makes no difference at all to our human limitations. This meditation is actually bringing the purity of the unbounded throughout the living mind and body - consciously.

This is a really simple practice too, to be aware of yourself in this way, so it could well be integrated with little effort, jiust a more conscious awareness of your subtle distractions, that can be overlooked when your looking and noticing just the breath moving in and out. This is more conscious awareness of what that "breath" touches upon and activates like those little subtle itches you mentioned, a whole other world really.. I am already going crazy thinking about those itches and not scratching them..hehehe..

Yes, you say it well, but I'd keep with the breath at least a month and let the attachments to any body arisings subside. The ego will still be chasing pleasant sensations and avoiding painful ones, and that is exactly what we do NOT want to practice.

Thanks Gem, overboard got me thinking, not sinking..haha

I don't mind talking on it, but I feel self-conscious, because 'the experts' usually shoot me down. They have much better things to say about energy bodies and light and so on. I only say that itch on your cheek will soon go away. I'm basically saying all these are appearing in the temporal realm, and it makes no difference at all. If it does make a difference to 'you', well that's a noticing of the ego dynamic of chase and run away.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

Yes, what it touches on in the immediate sense - as sensation - so a breath meditation is actually a sensation meditation, in this case, the sensation where the air touch's the skin.

The other feelings of the emotional kind a what I will simply call, reactions to sensation - this part of the body sensation and the emotional state is a very intricate subject - but suffice to say - everything of the emotional mind (and all thoughts as well) manifest as sensation in ones body - but at this basic stage it is fair to say that as soon as you start this sort of meditation, the purification is on. Basically, when 'you' stop, it starts, and this as I say is 'stop and look'.

One step back, because I said if an itch comes up let it be there until it goes away. Usually our human habit is if something 'unpleasant' happens we don;'t like it and we react. This specific breath work I'm talking about is the cessation of that - I might go into the reasons later on - but because I'm only talking as though readers are like day 1 --- these complexities are for later on for those who practice seriously.

Suffice to say for now that the Buddhist approach is the 'cessation' of dukka, and dukka is 'you' reacting to the senses.

I was reading on another thread of a person who said that 45 minutes is the right amount because a longer period makes the mind unsettled, but usually suggest an hour of sitting, because that last 15 minutes when to mind starts up wontonly is a time when you realise a lot about your own mental dilemmas. This is not a fight against such agitations, it is the acknowledgment of them - that facing of your truth.

Do not fight to 'stay calm' - observe the storm - because that is coming into conscious awareness to be dissolved in the light of your knowing.

Even this it saying to much too soon, because the practice itself has not yet revealed the living experience of which I speak, anf the narrative and the practice go hand in hand, together, and not before the other, so that nothing is led.



Yes indeed. This is, in fact, a body meditation, but the sensation is in that nose area, and not the whole body. It does lead onto a whole body 'aliveness' but later on.


That is dead on, but it's for a bit later on, and if a person approached their practice as I described, they will know it when their body starts to 'come alive'. I would suggest after about month of breath - and seriously - everyday for at at least 45 mins - one hour sits are better, and 2 times a day for an hour is awesome for those who really mean it. It is work, not so much an effort, but hard. There is what they call 'right effort' but that also has a very subtle meaning which is not simply 'try hard'.

From starting day, stick with breath sensation, and no matter what else happens in the body, stick with breath. Often times things we read, crown chakra, energies, and so forth get us excited and while breath is noticed as it is, some cool tingling starts on top pf head, and meditator is excited by it, like, wow chakra, and starts going there... but remember, this isn't about feeling things which are easy to feel. This is about feeling what is berely even perceptible, and that's why it is done like this. Don't get distracted by 'wow things' in the body. The ego is just trying to attach with desire, and this mental agitation will make the mind go duller. Besides that head tingle I mentioned came about because of the work on breath, so you stick to breath because it's working.

In the beginning while working on breath, what comes up in the rest of the body can be disregarded entirely. The body will start to come alive soon enough, but that's not why we practice. The practice is high - that awareness with a still balanced mind - and literally everything else is merely consequential to this highest truthful undertaking.



Exactly. Basically, if you observe reactivity, then 'you' aren't actually reacting. The idea and belief that you were the one reacting is the whole of dukka.


Yep, people will see things arising and want to 'heal' them, but I assure you the healing is already the fact that it has risen to conscious awareness. As ones stability of equanimity becomes more established and you're less easily disturbed, then you can endure the very serious storms that have been avoided for a long time, maybe lifetimes.

This isn't 'trying to heal'. 'Trying to heal' is an activity perpetuated by adverse reactivity toward that 'thing' you want to heal. This is about the cessation of precisely that. You are aware, dhamma heals, and this means it makes no difference to you if that thing remains or if it goes away (but of course it goes away because change is how it is). It's simply not your concern. Now you aren't concerned, why problem, right? Before long it will be of no interest, and hence never recur to the mind at all - it'll be like it never even happened anyway.


Exactly... it's a process of the life path , and I guess the pure path IS the path of purification. We're human beings though, so despite all the natter about 'unbounded awareness', well, that makes no difference at all to our human limitations. This meditation is actually bringing the purity of the unbounded throughout the living mind and body - consciously.



Yes, you say it well, but I'd keep with the breath at least a month and let the attachments to any body arisings subside. The ego will still be chasing pleasant sensations and avoiding painful ones, and that is exactly what we do NOT want to practice.


I don't mind talking on it, but I feel self-conscious, because 'the experts' usually shoot me down. They have much better things to say about energy bodies and light and so on. I only say that itch on your cheek will soon go away. I'm basically saying all these are appearing in the temporal realm, and it makes no difference at all. If it does make a difference to 'you', well that's a noticing of the ego dynamic of chase and run away.

Thankyou. I have the awareness more clear now, this is really transforming my own meditation practice into something new. I have a good friend who leads meditation classes, I believe, she would love to read this and put this into practice with her classes, so I am going to share it with her, then she can lead me and others on those days I attend those group sessions to become more conscious of this way. (lots of fidgeting and movement with people during the one hour class and only a select few (me included) will sit upright, others want to lay down most often, this could support this in a new way and with new awareness as to what it can support in us all )

[Bohdiyana]

you find that some cant see themselves...

The idea of "others" is interesting. It implies I am "seeing" something other than myself which I would guess is impossible. The nature of the camera determines the nature of the image it "sees" or captures. Yes there is an apple there, but the only thing I can see or experience is my perceptions or reactions to it. Not is as it exists apart from me.

If someone finds an "other" can't see themselves, it is an "idea" reality that only exists in the perceiver, not in that which is perceived. So where is the truth in it? If truth is relative to a perceiver, it is subjective truth. Subjective truth is truth that is not true for everyone.

I would say the objective truth is everyone is in their own heads and juggling and dealing with whatever is there, and we can perceive and interpret the noise from others heads and add that to our own, flipping and mixing it like a cake batter, then spitting it back out as a shiny object for others to then be captivated by. All of this takes place within a language and concept free unconditioned space which is filled by us according to what we pay attention to or find to be important.