Dependent origination

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

Well they are in the present moment. How could they not be? It's just the present moment for them is about what they are paying attention to and experiencing, which in your example is issues and fears. We are always in the present moment.

It's very simple. Your true nature is the present moment, seeing things how they are, all energy, all one with you, as you is the present moment.

If you are caught up in anger.. you are far from that, therefore you are not present in the moment but more lost in the obstruction.

That is making this current moment about an idea, a thought. "It" or this now can be about nothing at all. Just residing in this non-verbal now, in inner and outer peace as love. Why add an idea of imagined conflict to now? Imagining an obstruction and imagining this imagined thing needs to be cleared out. That is self created conflict in the now.

It's pretty basic spirituality and anyone who has traveled farther down the path would understand. Mindfulness experiences the present moment much different that someone caught up in those thoughts.

It isn't an idea, it is direct experience of.

To the person who is experiencing un-necessary or un-needed issues and fears, they have to understand they are creating that by allowing their attention and energy to go to and feed these things. But then also some "issues" and "fears" are appropriate to what is happening in one's life at that particular time. So the issues and fears should be there and are in fact positive and good. They are there to deal with what is present.

There are always excuses to justify issues. If there is danger is a Navy Seal filled with fear or calm and ready to take action?

Life is a flow, in one moment we may be peacefully smelling a flower in a park, then someone starts shooting a gun and we are filled with fear and we run in a panic. In the end and in the present, it is about love. Did we make others and our own lives better by us being here, or did we cause suffering in others or ourselves? End conflicts, don't create them with ideas or actions. Love ourselves and others unconditionally. Understanding instead of judging.

Military trains people to not have that fear, to be calm and to think when situations like that happen. Fear clouds judgement and people die because of mistakes...

Step one is to not justify your issues but to work on letting them go..

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

One can't be in _____?______ if one is caught up in issues/fears.

One can't be in inner and outer peace if one is caught up in issues/fears?

Caught up means what? Identified with and fully present with, experiencing as self.

One could be in inner and outer peace if one is non-identified with that which is "caught up" or becomes caught up.

but then one just is aware of issues/fears without identification or resistance...so they come and go without leaving a mark
without becoming phenomenal, having an effect other than an appropriate response from a base of understanding, acceptance and love.

You are still at the local mind, intellectualizing things. "a base of understanding"

That is not what spirituality is about.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Gem

Well, you can experience things as they are now, you can know, this is agitation, jealousy, fear or whatever the case might be, and the meditators do recognise this of themselves as every person without exception has their own life issues.


In satipatthana sutta it says in the section on The Observation of Mind and the section on The Observation of Mental Contents: If the agitation is there understand it is there, and if the peace is there understand it is there. I'm just mentioning it generally, but the text lists a number of mental states which you can reference yourself. Within the prescribed observation you will notice that these states, regardless of what these states are, are not permanent. You watch them arising and also passing away and know full well that they cannot possibly be 'stayed in'; but if you happen to be in a state of some kind now, understand properly that is the state you are in. Of course you can't possibly stay in a state, so don't waste time with that.


Here I will elaborate because it is not the intellectual understanding of impermanence in itself that brings resolution, but how the truth of the nature of the states as passing brings greater equanimity to the mind. With equanimity your aversion toward jealousy lapses, and you simply see it is a fact, 'this jealosy has pervaded my mind', and you have no desire for it, you have no aversion toward it, so it passes in its own time without your concern.


The passage ends: "Thus he dwells observing the phenomenon of passing away in the mind, thus he dwells observing the phenomenon of arising and passing away in the mind. Now his awareness is established: "This is mind!" Thus he develops his awareness to such an extent that there is mere understanding along with mere awareness. In this way he dwells detached, without clinging towards anything in the world [of mind and matter]. This is how, monks, a monk dwells observing mind in mind." (https://www.tipitaka.org/stp-pali-eng-parallel.shtml#27)

Yes Gem, notice the attachments, don't get caught up in them and in time they liberate.

Much like his mediation practice. Long breath, say long breath, short breath, say short breath.. noticing.. same technique but What is, is much farther down the path.. as the sutras describe.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by JustBe

The present moment is what it is for you, regardless of what it is your experiencing. It’s about full presence with what is.

In this way, your not escaping yourself.

If fear arises that’s the moment to be present and aware of what is. Any issue in fact, can be dissolved fully through mindfulness if you ‘as the moment’ are open to what is moving through yourself, from moment to moment.

A waking, walking meditative approach..

It doesn’t require energy, or chakra awareness..

Your own presence more clear is more helpful to others than the need to ‘fix’ anything in others..

Your right it doesn't require energy or chakra awareness to clear issues.

Later as you grow in depth that stuff comes into play.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

Life is a flow, in one moment we may be peacefully smelling a flower in a park, then someone starts shooting a gun and we are filled with fear and we run in a panic.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Military trains people to not have that fear, to be calm and to think when situations like that happen. Fear clouds judgement and people die because of mistakes...

You might be surprised how people really react to a situation. What generally 'rules' the moment is 'fear or fight' which exposes a person's true nature.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Yes Gem, notice the attachments, don't get caught up in them and in time they liberate.

Much like his mediation practice. Long breath, say long breath, short breath, say short breath.. noticing.. same technique but What is, is much farther down the path.. as the sutras describe.

As I say, I'm just saying 'what is' 'as it is' to mean what is happening in the way you experience it. You're using it to mean some sort of ultimate reality which is way down the path, whereas I'm using it to refer to 'the way' it is now.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

You might be surprised how people really react to a situation. What generally 'rules' the moment is 'fear or fight' which exposes a person's true nature.

Yes, issues run deep.

Also, there are teachings that talk about how those moments can show us presence.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Gem

As I say, I'm just saying 'what is' 'as it is' to mean what is happening in the way you experience it. You're using it to mean some sort of ultimate reality which is way down the path, whereas I'm using it to refer to 'the way' it is now.

I agree but let's even go with your way.

As it is now.. then what?

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Your right it doesn't require energy or chakra awareness to clear issues.

Later as you grow in depth that stuff comes into play.

Can you elaborate why you single out issues such as anger as being removed from the present moment?

When the moment in presence need only be ‘aware’ this is what I’m ‘feeling’, this is how ‘it is’. Using the moment to be ‘attentive, from within with what is.

‘You’ are the moment in this way.

I learnt about chakras and energy much earlier in my process, so I disagree that their is an order to what arises as you grow in depth.

If anything I see ‘full presence’ and moving into emptiness/completeness as the depth, which then leads one to ‘potentials’ of the ‘self realized’. Energy and chakras were and are for me, awareness of what I ‘consist of’ as ‘full body awareness. Being ‘aware’ of all things ‘realized’ through my process, is not the me I am. ‘I am’ the one aware of myself in all that. They are ‘creative’ tools we ‘use’ to determine ‘how’ the process within works for us.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I agree but let's even go with your way.

As it is now.. then what?

Can you tell us what you think, ‘then what’ might mean?

Your asking the question so your obviously seeing their has to be ‘more’ in some way.

You seem to see ‘gems’ way as ‘missing something’ your seeing, yet when I read his ‘way’ it seems ‘clear and aware’. Whatever he or others may experience, it’s ‘self awareness’ and attention to your inner process that allows you to ‘naturally’ open to more.

What more does one need if your open to yourself, allowing, attentive and present with what is?

Their is no containment or attachment going on in this way, because your aware of yourself and what is.