Consciousness

[BlueSky]

I think the bottom line is that you are there. What you are will always be a concept, be it the watcher or emptiness. I just don't give it any thought and simply live my life enjoying the relationships and my sense of being.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

Yea I have a feeling the philosophers who created the Buddhist dogma and religion tried very hard to have no word or concept for "me" as "I" exist purely as perception with no bias or conditioning present. They say things like "know your nature" and our true nature is empty, no-self, one finds nirvana etc but then the emptiness itself, all these words and concepts like empty, silence, nirvana, liberation, "you are that," no separation etc become concepts themselves so they didn't really find a solution to the ever present problem to make one stop searching for it though thought based self which prevents it or covers it. They perhaps have no word or name or concept for what we are as liberated perception because philosophically, their understanding was one must find out what they are themselves. Their intent was to motivate a person to find out, and not just accept an idea. I think they knew if they presented any idea or concept of self, it would just become owned by the ego and the thought identified self so this would become one more barrier to enlightenment or liberation. So they purposely would never say what it was except in terms of experience, like emptiness, nothing, etc. If you are carrying any idea of what you are, you are focusing on the conceptual world.

I found a really clever way it is explained was in Carlos Castenada's books when the "seeing" mystic shaman, Don Juan, sits down with his student, Carlos, in a restaurant and says there are two worlds or realities, the Tonal and the Nagual then goes on to say the Nagual is where mystics live and "see" and the Tonal is where an ordinary man lives. He kind of swept his hands across the table as he said this stuff about the ordinary world, the Tonal. So then Carlos starts to try to figure out what is what by asking question like, so is the Nagual our soul? And Don Juan points to the ketchup bottle and says no that's the soul. Carlos continues throwing out words, is the Nagual or true self?, our consciousness?, another dimension?, living without thinking? and on and on and no matter what Carlos asks about, Don Juan just points to another item on the restaurant table. The true self is the fork, consciousness is the salt shaker, living without thinking is the plate etc. The point Don Juan was making was the world of the Nagual, or "seer" or shaman, where he lived, was not conceptual. It was not word or thought based.

I think that is maybe one of the hardest philosophical ideas to get across to people, anything you come up with in your mind, anything, is a concept. Even the concept you have no concepts. Some people can't get what the non-conceptual world actually is but then to actually "get it" you have to experience it. Otherwise, you just have a concept about a concept. When it is said in Zen Buddhism everything is dropped, they are not kidding lol. Even dropping is dropped. You live in the present moment unidentified with any concept. It's really a subtle and tricky thing because in a unidentified state, one can apply thought and concepts to the actual, so words and language can be used to describe what is being experienced, but then also, almost the exact same words and concepts can be used by a thought identified consciousness to pretend it is liberated.

Like people can state and actually believe they are in some state of inner freedom and liberation, but then if you disagree with anything in their post, they get upset and defensive. They can't handle one idea being questioned. Yet, ideas have zero importance to one who is truly free and in a unconditioned state. They don't identify with ideas. From a honesty perspective, if me you anybody gets the least bit defensive or "hurt" about anything somebody else posts, it means we are attached to some idea about self, but then does anyone really think they are enlightened fully? If we were 100% liberated, we would not be on earth in a human body. We are moments when we are somewhat clear and moments we are not. Moments we are somewhat clear and moments we are not but are 100% convinced we are lol. It's always changing, moment to moment. I find I am more able to be on some level present to what is non-conceptually in the mornings. By afternoon, it is hard to get there. I don't know if this is because energy is needed and the day or just basic living has drained it out of me, or the constant bombardment of thought from the brain takes some toll where you finally just acquiesce and fall into it. It's also so much a matter of degree. One can get free of a bunch of stuff but still have these little defensive bits where ego is still in control. You can work and get free of a bunch of attachments but still have "buttons" that if pushed get you being defensive again.

Really that's the whole purpose of incarnating. It is lives designed to work on whatever aspects you are still having problems freeing yourself of. I see it when I look at people I know. Some people I know have zero money issues but have tons of relationship problems. Others, are quite happy and content in their relationships, but then have all kinds of problems in life over jobs and money and health etc. People have different things they are working on or karmically have to deal with. So everyone's path and issues are unique. But then the way to inner and outer peace is probably the same in all. Surrender to what is you can't control. Be kind to yourself and others. Because really, others are you. We are all the same.



Yea consciousness focuses on that stuff and then that becomes what is projected as self and experienced.



We are so merged with the human body and brain and all of its words and concepts about what we are or our "parts" it's hard to know what is what on a thinking word/concept level. It's like we are in this box full of conceptual content and life is trying to figure out what in there is really us and what isn't. It doesn't help that thought, from the human body and brain, is also in the mix offering it's wise and learned input lol. It's a funny situation really. We identify with thought as us, then as thought, we try to figure out how to be free of thought. Then thought invents 10 billion methods to be free of thought, none of which work. Thought can create our realty and experience, or we can learn to transcend thoughts. We can step down and become humble and innocent and free. Not needing to be anything or anyone. I don't really know a good way to explain this stuff. I'm like everybody else, walking around confused and unaware most of the time in this mystery we call life. Slowly learning better ways to be. It's like over thousands of lives we have accumulated all of this stuff, and so now it's a matter of letting it go. Seeing ourselves in everyone and everything. In the end, I think it's all about unconditional love. Being in the moment merged or identified with that and nothing else. Because really, deep down that's what we are. Unlimited (infinite?) awareness and compassion and love. Or at least that is what we are connected to on some deep level and we are trying to return to, or get closer to that.

I guess it is quite a process coming to understand the workings of attachment as something subtle, so subtle that within seconds of me feeling I have a bit of grasp the nature of it, the concept I just had starts dissolving away - which is the point, really, isn't it. OK because people are led to believe there's a detachment, which is a remoteness from which one observes, and fair enough, but is it really true, or is some sort of pretence that there is an observer in control of itself, or in question form, is anyone actually controlling themselves? Not that I know the answer to that. If I did have a definitive truth in such regard it would be a crude loud 'yes or no', like a mack truck hitting a wall to come to a conclusion. No one would notice the small feather blowing on the softest breeze in the din and excitement of such a spectacular impact.

[A human Being]

Originally Posted by mulyo13

I only want to say, mind will never be empty. When mind is empty, the mind is filled with 'empty mind'.
The emptiness of mind is a condition where you are in the emptiness of mind, not 'looking' or 'observe' the mind. In other words, you are inside the empty cup, not out side the cup and looking the cup is empty.

One question comes to mind (and this isn't me asking rhetorical questions in order to make some sort of point, honest): Can you locate this mind of which you speak?

[RyanWind]

The point is self created. We can have a point or don't have one, but then to not have one means we have one, to not have one. The point is also determined by our perspective. Are we looking from ego and thought or from a place detached from these things? It's a little harder to have a point about a lot of stuff if our perspective is detached from that which is usually occupied with making points about whatever is.

Then also, looking at our situation, with karma and incarnations and laws of cause and effect and pleasure and pain built into the structure of the human body and mind, something or someone seems to have a very big point to have created this entire structure which is designed to push and prod consciousness to become more aware of itself.

What if our source had no point? Well then karma would not exist since the universe would have no desired outcome to consciousness running around in physical form. Harm others with ill intent?, no problem, the universe don't care. Seems to me there is always a point, a very big deep one, but then realty is not as simple as a few sentences seeking to define it. There can be points and no points co-existing at the same time because for a mind that can generate thoughts at a billion times a minute, it's really not a difficult thing to do, though to see what's what from one little corner of self, is impossible. One has to look from above, down unto the totality to see clearly what is going on. One doesn't see the whole field from a corner. Thought is just one little part of what we are. One must look from the whole self, not just the thinker self.

Detachment to me is a fully immersed perspective which is not remote at all. One doesn't get far away from ones beliefs and thoughts and opinions, one gets up in them and blows them up from within, not without. One sees them fully for what they are and the separation comes from seeing the truth of what is, not from distance, the separation is caused by awareness and knowledge about the nature of what was hidden or not seen. I am the creator of using thought and opinion and belief, they are not something separate from me as it is my attention and interest that gives them life and form. My undying devotion to uphold them as my truths. If I see them for what they are, as non-phenomenal habitual mechanical projections from a human mind, that's what they become, what they always were.

It was I who gave them reality and presence and form. So it's not that I distance myself from them. I see they never had any substance or presence. It was I that gave them that. Self awareness is what brings the detachment, not distance or resistance. I don't have to put away that which I am paying attention to. I simply have to stop paying attention to it. I have to see my role in the creation of my experience and reality.

[mulyo13]

Originally Posted by A human Being

One question comes to mind (and this isn't me asking rhetorical questions in order to make some sort of point, honest): Can you locate this mind of which you speak?

I can't answer your question. Your question is like a koan, 'Where is your heart?'.
But if you ask me, can I aware that kind of mind state? Yes, but I can't aware it continuously and only aware of it for 1 sec or less. After that mind make me think that I'm in that condition for a long time.
I'm aware/realize that the mind made me think that I'm in that condition for a long time, also less than 1 sec. Like something hit me and I just know that previous I'm in piti state .