Can someone remove another person's karma?

[Gwutzi]

Originally Posted by django

Is it ever possible or warranted for a high level practitioner or Teacher to remove another persons karma or to go through it for/with them?

Very much possible... its either to speak life into things, or to exchange it with ones own karma (partially)..
a good advice from a person can alter the course of the persons in trouble..
so more rather call it change of course.. So yes it is possible to place good or new energy into another persons karma.. by helping them out of the ditch... this in itself is altering karma.. so where as it isnt removing karma persay.. rather exchanging and alternation of a karmas term..

one the other hand.. one can suffer with a person and thereby make admendments for that persons situation (which in case and part-tion) is the karma of that person himself... but it is better to give advice to them then to suffer as it would uplift and be of good energy within itself... (yet to some it is vital to suffer with another person for growth and realizations manuver reason of which i not and neither speak badly against)

...

[Jeremy Bong]

Don't forget karma is going to be arranged by karma itself and not to say that anyone can change it. People believe that you're born in a wealthy family then you must have done good things in your last life. That's a good karma.

But if one was rebirth in a worse family or country then no one on earth can change that. If he has changed his life that's he has to go through this early life of suffering and to get a better living or later life. And that's the karma arrangement and the karma meaning.

Karma has its own meaning in it. As Sky say, it's all depends on themselves, or others saying it can be done by others. They're all possible for a change but the karma will lead the ways.

What I said is all are karma arrangement itself not by others or teachers or gurus or瞒天过海as to cross the sea by keeping heaven in ignorance --- practice colossal deception under a facade.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

Dhammapada Verse 165
Culakala Upasaka Vatthu

Attana hi katam pipam
attana samkilissati
attana akatam papam
attanava visujjhati
suddhi asuddhi paccattam
nanno annanam visodhaye.

Verse 165: By oneself indeed is evil done and by oneself is one defiled; by oneself is evil not done and by oneself is one purified. Purity and impurity depend entirely on oneself; no one can purify another.

That is correct.

One can help, one can help speed things along but in the end, it has to be you that lets go..

With that being said, one can be helped to make it easier to let go :)

Lots of things are possible if one is open..

[django]

Sky, what about Tonglen as a vehicle for taking on someone's karma?

I'm normally very hard line on these sort of things myself, but I wonder if there's an 'authentic compassion loophole' somewhere?

[Gwutzi]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Bong

Don't forget karma is going to be arranged by karma itself and not to say that anyone can change it. People believe that you're born in a wealthy family then you must have done good things in your last life. That's a good karma.

But if one was rebirth in a worse family or country then no one on earth can change that. If he has changed his life that's he has to go through this early life of suffering and to get a better living or later life. And that's the karma arrangement and the karma meaning.

Karma has its own meaning in it. As Sky say, it's all depends on themselves, or others saying it can be done by others. They're all possible for a change but the karma will lead the ways.

What I said is all are karma arrangement itself not by others or teachers or gurus or瞒天过海as to cross the sea by keeping heaven in ignorance --- practice colossal deception under a facade.

One reaching the point of enlightenment is the good karma... of course karma can be seen as wealthy family born as well.. but thats not the prime notion of itself altho i reckon karma does not bother about these thing... How things are payed off can be in afterlives as to say next lives as well rather then the same, but one can tackle on present karmas and certain karmas to be dealt with altho.. So yes whereas karma deals with its own matter at hand.. ie karma.. mankind has the right to deal as interjection towards karmas deemed to (be) found in a better place within it...

Getting to the core of karma is the means of life.. but many live by the surface.. depending how good life is as well as how they recollect of importance enlightenment is to them..

all layers matter, but worldy affiliation might be just on the surface.. hence do we speak of shallow people as we know them... surface riders... no big deal to me.. but to the person itself it might be troublesome having hard life in worldy issues as to say familiarity of conversion in itself

Karma tho is wonderful, thank karma for me pls..lol

[shiningstars]

As this is a Buddhist forum, I'd like to mention again that the Buddha defined kamma as intention.

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect."

— AN 6.63

Kamma-vipaka refers to the results of kamma.

The specific/detailed workings of {the full effects of} kamma are one of the four Buddhist imponderables - which can only be known by a Fully Awakened Buddha.

The Buddha clearly and explicitly states that karma is one of the core tenets of Buddhist teaching, and that through adoption of the Eightfold Path, one can know liberation in this life.

One own's one's karma, how we mesh and intertwine is a more complex activity and frame of reference.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/d...thi/kamma.html

shiningstars

[shiningstars]

Originally Posted by django

Sky, what about Tonglen as a vehicle for taking on someone's karma?

I'm normally very hard line on these sort of things myself, but I wonder if there's an 'authentic compassion loophole' somewhere?

What are you specifically asking, django?

If you can help another? People can try to help. This is undeniable. The results of kamma are ultimately shared, e.g. the environment, states of war and peace, how you treat one person flows on to another, the "butterfly" effect etc.

As Jyotir alludes to, Masters can intervene as well to "help".

To think that one can - at will - change the course of one or another's life or destiny or individual kammic burden, however is a self-centered attitude at the end of the day.

Buddhists, to my knowledge, approach life with the realization of wisdom and compassion - wisdom is knowledge of the Dharma - the True Irrefutable Law.

Seeing All as One, one acts without the arrogance of self and detachment (not indifference) to what is. In action, there is action. In being moved, there is being moved. But One acts with Dharma as the basis, and Buddha in the heart. This is true action, and true detachment.

shiningstars

[shiningstars]

Originally Posted by running

it doesnt take a genuis to see the obvious reguardless of whats popular. if i was to go by a popularity contest im afraid this guy wouldnt even be in the cards. Jesus, and Allah would be.

just like everything in life. you got things that are popular. and things that work. its not a mistake that popular doesnt mean works. if it did then everybody would be in bliss.

its that attitude towards things that makes for puppets.

Hi running,

Perhaps I can add a complementary viewpoint to your heated discussion here.

By oneself indeed is evil done and by oneself is one defiled; by oneself is evil not done and by oneself is one purified. Purity and impurity depend entirely on oneself; no one can purify another.

- Gautama Buddha

These are, to my knowledge, Buddha's words.

The Buddha is highly esteemed in many circles, including in Buddhist ones. Your proposal that the author of these words is a moron is perhaps a tad harsh, in my opinion.

What this quote refers to is the fact that each person own's one heart/mind and the flows and effects on that.

Even when a Guru/Master {if one is able to meet a genuine, real one in this lifetime} helps, they do so in a way that helps the aspirant see/feel/sense purity perhaps. Highly skilled teachers can also provide guidance on where the student is stuck. Spiritual materialism or ego is very real, unfortunately, and a common trap.

No-one can, without the right conditions and kamma-vipaka, meet a Master who can do such a thing without kamma-vipaka.

Also, no Guide or Teacher can come in and clear someone's cobwebs, defilements, delusions, and ignorance permanently - it is up to each student.

Were this not true, all of Buddha's, Jesus's, Sri Raman Maharsi, Rumi, Meister Eickhart etc etc etc's students/disciplines would be Awakened Masters.

Each has to still do their work. Each still owns the results of their attitudes, soul maturity and choices of heart/mind.

If you believe otherwise, that is a cult to me, not a genuine spiritual tradition.

shiningstars

[running]

Originally Posted by shiningstars

Hi running,

Perhaps I can add a complementary viewpoint to your heated discussion here.

By oneself indeed is evil done and by oneself is one defiled; by oneself is evil not done and by oneself is one purified. Purity and impurity depend entirely on oneself; no one can purify another.

- Gautama Buddha

These are, to my knowledge, Buddha's words.

The Buddha is highly esteemed in many circles, including in Buddhist ones. Your proposal that the author of these words is a moron is perhaps a tad harsh, in my opinion.

What this quote refers to is the fact that each person own's one heart/mind and the flows and effects on that.

Even when a Guru/Master {if one is able to meet a genuine, real one in this lifetime} helps, they do so in a way that helps the aspirant see/feel/sense purity perhaps. Highly skilled teachers can also provide guidance on where the student is stuck. Spiritual materialism or ego is very real, unfortunately, and a common trap.

No-one can, without the right conditions and kamma-vipaka, meet a Master who can do such a thing without kamma-vipaka.

Also, no Guide or Teacher can come in and clear someone's cobwebs, defilements, delusions, and ignorance permanently - it is up to each student.

Were this not true, all of Buddha's, Jesus's, Sri Raman Maharsi, Rumi, Meister Eickhart etc etc etc's students/disciplines would be Awakened Masters.

Each has to still do their work. Each still owns the results of their attitudes, soul maturity and choices of heart/mind.

If you believe otherwise, that is a cult to me, not a genuine spiritual tradition.

shiningstars

what matters is what works for the person. countless people since forever have been able and do experience the bliss and silence. the idea that it has to be like this. or that to get from point a to point b is the major problem. is the major source of violence on the planet for millennia, and the greatest wall put up keeping people from being interested to be on their path to it.

its ridiculiois imo to say what he said if he had any decent perspectice of the scope of the process. its that sorta ridiculous whether intentional or not creates a society of puppets.

i usually dont speak my thoughts about it because its pretty much pointless and doesnt matter anyways. sense it is mostly human nature not to trust ones own intuition at this time. perhaps one day. instead suck into some kinda self hate that i saw being sold because its popular.

bliss and silence has nothing to do with becoming selfjudgemental and or arranging ones social behaviors to fit in any particular society. if it did nobody would be able to maintain it due to oneness.

as i experience it and some others the mind has nothing to do with it. nor do circumstances. if anything it is the idea that it does is the problem.

if its about becoming a better member of society as a whole that is important to somebody. the bliss and silence will already do that effortlessly. when one is happy and content the motive to be needy and selfish is no longer as valid.

if its about effort i would look into like an anthropologist every day folks whom are not religious. you will see the majority living mostly by the golden rule without a load of hogwash being hung over their head in the form of dogmatic ideas as a motivation.

i have personaly seen at least a hundred people in india swept into silence and or bliss due to presence. at least four or five dozen in the states. it happens because things become opened up to it. the cobwebs and so on cleared out of the way.

each person has most to do with it. i agree. and each person is on their own path. presence can make a difference and the evidence is very clear through experiencing it. but to make clear im not suggesting it does it. the person does. im saying it helps. like a turbo on an engine.

I'm not a part of any tradition. everything i say comes from me and my personal experience. if that makes me my own cult of one. that is fine. i dont take that personal. perhaps a compliment. im not sure.

[django]

Originally Posted by running

what matters is what works for the person. countless people since forever have been able and do experience the bliss and silence. the idea that it has to be like this. or that to get from point a to point b is the major problem. is the major source of violence on the planet for millennia, and the greatest wall put up keeping people from being interested to be on their path to it.

its ridiculiois imo to say what he said if he had any decent perspectice of the scope of the process. its that sorta ridiculous whether intentional or not creates a society of puppets.

i usually dont speak my thoughts about it because its pretty much pointless and doesnt matter anyways. sense it is mostly human nature not to trust ones own intuition at this time. perhaps one day. instead suck into some kinda self hate that i saw being sold because its popular.

bliss and silence has nothing to do with becoming selfjudgemental and or arranging ones social behaviors to fit in any particular society. if it did nobody would be able to maintain it due to oneness.

as i experience it and some others the mind has nothing to do with it. nor do circumstances. if anything it is the idea that it does is the problem.

if its about becoming a better member of society as a whole that is important to somebody. the bliss and silence will already do that effortlessly. when one is happy and content the motive to be needy and selfish is no longer as valid.

if its about effort i would look into like an anthropologist every day folks whom are not religious. you will see the majority living mostly by the golden rule without a load of hogwash being hung over their head in the form of dogmatic ideas as a motivation.

i have personaly seen at least a hundred people in india swept into silence and or bliss due to presence. at least four or five dozen in the states. it happens because things become opened up to it. the cobwebs and so on cleared out of the way.

each person has most to do with it. i agree. and each person is on their own path. presence can make a difference and the evidence is very clear through experiencing it.

I'm not a part of any tradition. everything i say comes from me and my personal experience. if that makes me my own cult of one. that is fine. i dont take that personal. perhaps a compliment. im not sure.

i'm not sure that a guru creating bliss and silence in someone is directly related to removing karma, do you think these are equivalent though?