Can someone remove another person's karma?

[shiningstars]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

We are saying that a guru can help speed things along but in the end, yes you have to let go of the issue... Nobody is saying that someone else can do it for you...

To help explain here are some examples from Dzogchen.. The Self Perfected State:

I am familiar with Dzogchen. All these quotes are saying is Master and Student are One. For the genuine adept/Master they live this, and this is why they can/may - as a potentiality - "help" an aspirant.

There is no contradiction in what the Buddha said. A Master, no matter how enlightened and realized, cannot do the work for another. This is why even Lord Buddha, Jesus, St Catherine of Sienna, Rumi, many others, cannot wipe delusion away for another. They can only "point the way" to the practice, the path that leads to the cessation of dukkha.

They teach for that reason - for humanity, not because they are there to do YOUR work. As I said in my initial post if one is to come across a teacher like that, then there can be effects. I myself am blessed by this. But to imagine that that contradicts the Buddha's initial phrase, as quoted by sky123, is incorrect and folly.

The word games you play and quote don't help, and running's game here only works for those who don't yet truly understand perhaps. Oh the marketing slogans!

shiningstars

[running]

Originally Posted by shiningstars

Everyone is expressing their perspective.

You are in a Buddhist forum claiming that bliss is the way, and the Buddha is a moron for stating that one's effects are owned by oneself.

By oneself indeed is evil done and by oneself is one defiled; by oneself is evil not done and by oneself is one purified. Purity and impurity depend entirely on oneself; no one can purify another.

Karma is owned by each person. Bliss is a phenomenon. It is not contrary to the natural path, but nor is it the "point".

In Buddhism there is much wisdom and insight gained through meditative and other Buddhist practices, and tranquility and compassion are cornerstones of Buddhist practice.

Your assertions here are to convince - claiming that other religions cause bloodshed or that somehow your way of representing experience is the "unlimited" way - how is that different from what you claim to be the issue.

Do you use drugs for example, running? If you do, it's fine to say that but please don't come in here and proclaim that your way is any indication of genuine Buddhist practice, despite the marketing allure of "bliss" to the common folk.

shiningstars

whats scarier to me is people takimg statements like that literally. instead of considering its context. and contemplating ones own experience. the statement is ridiculious and counterproductive for many.

never said anyway was the way. i speak from my own experience and it happend to be about bliss.

i have a white russian about once every week or so. im not sure why you ask. but there you go.

never in my life claimed to be a Buddhist. my only claim is they lack a lot of transparency imo. And in doing so make for a lot of confusion.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by shiningstars

I am familiar with Dzogchen. All these quotes are saying is Master and Student are One. For the genuine adept/Master they live this, and this is why they can/may - as a potentiality - "help" an aspirant.

There is no contradiction in what the Buddha said. A Master, no matter how enlightened and realized, cannot do the work for another. This is why even Lord Buddha, Jesus, St Catherine of Sienna, Rumi, many others, cannot wipe delusion away for another. They can only "point the way" to the practice, the path that leads to the cessation of dukkha.

They teach for that reason - for humanity, not because they are there to do YOUR work. As I said in my initial post if one is to come across a teacher like that, then there can be effects. But to imagine that that contradicts the Buddha's initial phrase, as quoted by sky123, is incorrect and folly.

The word games you play and quote don't help, and running's game here only works for those who don't yet truly understand perhaps. Oh the marketing slogans!

shiningstars

They are not slogans, a transmission as I have presented from the guru is what helps the student move along.

potentiality is only if the student can not let go of the issues/obstructions. If they don't then nothing the guru does can help.

Bliss is part of the ground of being.

running is not playing games or using slogans he is describing his experience from a very advanced state of being.

I have not said anything that contradicts what the Buddha is saying. I have said the Buddha agrees with everything I have said. Please don't confuse me with running on this issue.

The effects you mention are a better life.. moving along the path.

Also, can you show some texts where it says that bliss is a phenomenon? I am talking of bliss experienced outside of meditation, when meditation and life are one and the same.

[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

They are not slogans, a transmission as I have presented from the guru is what helps the student move along.

potentiality is only if the student can not let go of the issues/obstructions. If they don't then nothing the guru does can help.

Bliss is part of the ground of being.

running is not playing games or using slogans he is describing his experience from a very advanced state of being.

I have not said anything that contradicts what the Buddha is saying. I have said the Buddha agrees with everything I have said. Please don't confuse me with running on this issue.

The effects you mention are a better life.. moving along the path.

Also, can you show some texts where it says that bliss is a phenomenon? I am talking of bliss experienced outside of meditation, when meditation and life are one and the same.

I cannot see a being who supposedly is very advance calling the Buddha a moron...

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

I cannot see a being who supposedly is very advance calling the Buddha a moron...

More he is not a Buddhist and doesn't study Buddhism.

I think the problem is he was taking some of the members interpretation of the sutra instead of really looking into what it really means.

running knows people can help others along the path, he knows what a guru can do. So it was with the interpretation of members saying the Buddha said it is not possible that he was saying is moronic.

[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

More he is not a Buddhist and doesn't study Buddhism.

I think the problem is he was taking some of the members interpretation of the sutra instead of really looking into what it really means.

running knows people can help others along the path, he knows what a guru can do. So it was with the interpretation of members saying the Buddha said it is not possible that he was saying is moronic.

This is a Buddhist Thread.....
He called the writer of the Dhammapada a moron . His words....

' Whomever wrote that either lacks experience or is a moron caught into nonsense '

A being who is very advanced wrote those words.... very advanced... doesn't seem like it to me.

[sky]

Dhammapada*Sutta is the Pali name for the scripture, and Dharmapada**is the Sanskrit name of the collection of verses. ... The sayings, or "threads of wisdom," were widely repeated for teaching and inspiration in East Asian Buddhist cultures for over twenty centuries.

[Jeremy Bong]

Originally Posted by sky123

I cannot see a being who supposedly is very advance calling the Buddha a moron...

Here I see two types of belief here, that's with the perspective of other religion mainly Hinduism and purely Buddhism. And this argument will never...... if we proceed to argue about the truth that what Buddha Gautama teaching.

That's Dzogchen is not Buddhism from Buddha Gautama actually it's the opposite of Buddhism so if joneboy using it to quote then the argument will go to two ends to the thread title: karma. It's because Tibetan Buddhism is practicing YabYum while pure Buddhism is not. Then it will become two different quote and different outlook of perspectives.

So unless the moderator can comply to understand the nature of Buddhism , not to include the Tibetan Buddhism to be discussed on this thread (to create a new thread for Tibetan Buddhism) then the problem will be solved completely. I think it's a cruel decision (not personal) but this is the fact. If it's not solved wisely then there will be no ending of this argument of scriptures of different "Buddhism" that joneboy has quoted from.

One is Hinduism and another is Buddhism then their believes are entirely two different religions. So to argue one truth of karma then there's no way can meet to a right conclusion.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Bong

Here I see two types of belief here, that's with the perspective of other religion mainly Hinduism and purely Buddhism. And this argument will never if we proceed to argue about the truth that what Buddha Gautama teaching teaching.

That's Dzogchen is not Buddhism from Buddha Gautama actually it's the opposite of Buddhism so if joneboy using it to quote then the argument will go to two ends unparalleled to the thread title: karma. It's because Tibetan Buddhism is practicing YabYum while pure Buddhism isnot. Then it will become two different quote and different outlook of perspectives.

So unless the moderator can comply to understand the nature of Buddhism , not to include the Tibetan Buddhism to be discussed on this thread. I think it's a cruel decision but this is the fact. If it's not solve wisely then there will be no ending of this argument of scriptures of different "Buddhism" that joneboy has quoted from.

One is Hinduism and another is Buddhism then their believes are entirely two different religions. So to argue one truth of karma then there's no way can meet to a right conclusion.

If you come onto a Buddhist thread you expect to find Buddha's Sutras, if you don't agree with them then that's fine but you don't need to insult the Buddha..

[shiningstars]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

They are not slogans, a transmission as I have presented from the guru is what helps the student move along.

Hi jonesboy

I should have clarified it - when those words are spoken by a Dzogchen Adept, I am humbled.

I am not disputing the words in the context of a Dzogchen system of teaching nor do I disagree with those words for one who understands their true meaning.

Slogans is meant to indicate using phrases but not showing their true meaning.
Even a Dzogchen Master can only help as he or she can - the practice and change comes from the student within, which is also the true Master.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

[ describing his experience from a very advanced state of being.

That is your interpretation and not a fact. Not least in the Buddhist sense. There are many ways to bliss - including drugs and avoidance. At the first rub where is that bliss? No, true pacification is much deeper, more profound and significantly more substantial than an advertisement of 'bliss'. There are those on this forum who also imagine that altered consciousness is bliss is the pinnacle. That would be far from the Buddha away, for what it's worth.

shiningstars