Saint Paul was a gnostic

[Xiomara]

This is nice:gnosis.org/library/visionpaul.htm

[Pleroma]

Originally Posted by PeteC-UK

Hi Folks..

First - lets be clear here - there is no such thing as a "gnostic religion" - so to present it,or to view it as an "opposite agenda" or as something that is in contention to the established religion per se,would be wholly innacurate....

A TRUE gnostic,simply searches for,and takes the truth of his direct EXPERIENCES,over and above "the written word of man" or the traditons and generally accepted beliefs found "out in the world..A true gnostic,does it "for the Self" - encounters this Divinity we all seek,for the Self,and TRUSTS that experience above any other..GNOSIS,is essentially the deepest possible understanding,and this most obviously IS ALWAYS an "experience of Self" - you can NOT attain gnosis,EVER,from reading or following an other source - you can NOT attain Gnosis EVER,from an "outside source" - ALL such external sources,especially "academic knowldge",is nothn gmore than SECONDHAND opinion,and whilst following that,may put you on a correct path,it will never bring you to a state of true Gnosis..

Hence my mate Christ advised fully and always,seek ONLY this inner Divine communion - uncover your own gnosis...It is NOT a case of "Them vs Us" - except the church portrayed it that way on purpose...YES,the gnostic may reveal something slightly different to the CHURCH agenda - but NO,they wil NOT reveal anything that is contrary to CHRIST...Let that sink in............

Obviously Iam saying,for it is very very true - Yeshua Himself was a true gnostic,told us emphatically to become gnostic our Self - to shun the world out there,and seek always and only,for the iner Divine Presence..Its NOT a religion,a doctrine or a dogma - it is a STATE OF AWARENESS - true and authetic inner seeking,and importantly,ALLOWING of the experience,embracing and seeking the wisdom it bought,and a yearning to Know the truth of Self THROUGH such experiences...

NOT a religion at all..Buddha under the Bodhi tree - he IS a gnostic,uncovering the truth of Self,approaching the world out there FROM that inner perspective - likewise,the Rishi in an Indian cave,meditating on the veda and practicing noine stop Yoga,he too IS a gnostic,again uncovering the truth of Self and placin gTHAT importance BEFORE the concerns of the world out there - so too,the CArmalite Nun,the Franciscan Mink,alone in their cloisters,praying fervantly,iseeking constant commune WITHIN their Self,invoking the Divine Presence FOR THEM SELF - ALL these practies ARE gnostic - and see,they span an entire and diverse range of "religions"....

NOT a religion - but a state of Self awareness,that is the essence of true Gnoisticism...But yes,the church portrayed it now as a "sect2 a "cult" an established religion in opposition they say,to their own....It was never any such thing,and such organistaion and structuring would defeat its very purpose - point being if gnostic practice ever became structured such as catholicism did for example,then obviously,all the gnostic seekers would end up listening to,and folowing a hericahy of church authority,and inso dong,would ,miss totally,this more authentic inner communion,and what is revealed THERE..You can NOT follow another mans ways or traditons and BE a gnostic,the two things are polar opposites....

Hence,Christ said for example - you can NOT serve two masters - hence He said likewise,"hate the thngs of the father and mother" THEIR ways,preconceptions,traditons,you MUST give all that up He said or else you are not worty to gollow,UNABLE to succeed..

YES,a true gnostic seeker WILL UNCOVER a truth about them Self - will uncover a truth about the world out there also - and that truth IS UNIVERSAL - and yet it can and is discovered by a multitude of practices,which all point to ,give hints and clues to its existance and validity..But for sure,there is only one way to actually access this universal truth - and this is the true Gnostic path - NOT a religion at all - but an inner journey of Self discovery - DIRECT REVELATION - the true path of Christ - the narrow gate He spoke of - accessed always and only,within the deep silence of our own mind..

For the gnostic seeker,the truth becomes abundantly revealed - the truth of all thnigs - become me He said,and th emysteries are revealed...Now,the religion ar ein grave danger here then,for if we all go around uncovering Divine truth for our Self,then where does that leave them..?.. A) Without authority,as we see their errors B) Without authority as we now directly access an authentic Divine presence and dont even need them C) Absolutely without authoirty,as we see clearly follwoing THEM in the first place,was the very thing that stopped the Gnosis of Self from being realised !!

Of course then,the church did its damned best to eradicate any and all traces of gnostic wisdom - except the man at the foundation of their religion,WAS and IS the true gnostic,told us emphatically to become gnostic in our own seeking - warned us even,al this chicanery would happen - and we still inour ignorance,followed man blindly,and allowed it all to occur...Well - some followed blindly - for my Self I kind of stumbled off track for a while,only to find that was precisely what was needed..Go figure...

So anywat - gnosticism - not a religion - a seeking after,and an embrcing of,the Divine Presnece within,ITS revelation above the revelation of the world,ots T|RUH above the truth of the world...It is stated - Paul was a gnostic - and the religous do the knee jerk reaction and go all defensive again thinking they are attacked - taught to react and behave that way - them vs us agenda where no such agenda exists....Paul,most obviusly IS a true gnostic - because look and understand - here is a man who is an ENEMY to Christ,on his way even to go persecute some of my mates followers,and Paul enjoyed doing that,thougt he was all righteous doing the right thing,took a great pride in it....

But see on the way,my mate the Christ,decides to reveal Himself DIRECTLY to Paul - even though Paul is a despicable,malicious and borderline "evil" man and Christs direct enemy - see the true power of gnosis and why the chucrch fears it so - Paul encounters Christ,TRULY - and it is enough for him to immmediatly CHANGE HIS OLD WAYS !! IMMEDIALTELY the truth is revealed,he literally knows "what is what",can see his former lifestyle is a total error.....Let it sink in..........GNOSIS - the truth of Self revealed to Paul on the road to damascus,was enugh for him to fully embrace Christ and to start seeking n a genuine manner - even if Paul didnt fully understand Christ or His truth,at least he immediately knew the truth and errors of his OWN Self ..PAul for sure then IS a Gnostic because loj,he encoutered Divine truth and embrace dit fully,sought after it...He didnt follow any man to do this,but rather he allowed the direct revelation of Christ to be authority..That IS gnosis..

See then now,why Gnostic practices are all lumped together by this church authority and FORBIDDEN to us,the wisdom eradicated,those who held such knowledge tortured and murdered..The Gnostic reveals the truth through the genuine inner communion - invoking the Divine Presence for the Self,becoming it,JUST AS CHRIST TAUGHT...The truth of the sitution revealed thus,is very damning fo rthose in authority over us,for put simly,they have no legitimatte clai TO that authoirty...Christ already said all this of course in His diorect teaching,but lok,the church dominated,and kept it form you...For those with ears to hear,as He said...

Good post. St. Paul truly received the highest revelation from Christ but there are strong doctrinal differences between orthodox Christians and gnostic Christians which threatens all the churches worldwide.

1. Gnostics do not accept bodily resurrection but only spiritual resurrection.
2. Gnostics reject the original sin.
3. Gnostics reject that the world is real and assert that it was created by a mediator named the Demiurge.
4. Gnostics are docetic in the sense that they divide Christ from Jesus.
5. Gnostics believed in realized eschatalogy means one can achieve redemption here and now and no need to wait for the second coming.
6. Gnostics neither worship the creator nor the creation but only the Father of truth.
7. Gnostics interpreted scriptures allegorically rather than literally.
8. Gnostics have an emanationist view of cosmogony where Aeons emanate from the Father in a pair of syzgies in male and female pairs.

The list can go on but these are the essential features of gnosticism and gnostics have their own unique place in history. Gnosticism doesn't mean whatever you want to mean, it is as much dogmatic in its assertions as orthodox Christianity is. As you can see it agrees in next to nothing with orthodox Christianity.

[Pleroma]

Originally Posted by yolxochitl

This is nice:gnosis.org/library/visionpaul.htm

There is a coptic Apocalypse of Saint Paul which is far more nicer than this.

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Pleroma; Thanks for the comment - you say its a good post - but do you grasp the implications..?...

See all those points - especially the demiurge business - ALL of them - are mortal mans interpretations,as they struggle to understand the universal truth to existance..As siad above - and far more imprtantly,as said by Christ directly - the thing we seek - the Father - the source of All Creation - this can NOT be found by following another,but can only be EXPERIENCED directly..In fact he warned us directly,we should not even attempt to define it or name it,as to do so,will create a lesser versdion,literally,as the true Father is the SOURCE of all definition itself..Do you see..?..

What is written,should be treated then at best as a "signpost", a guide and a pointer perhaps - but NOT - NEVER - the "absolute truth"....Even when Christ spoke in the flesh,it was ONLY in words applicable to those people at that time..Do you see..?..He couldnt describe a universal truth to such a diverse people,especially nowadays a world wide diverse people,except in Parables and hidden layers - one language just doesnt cover it - even when He taught us directly face to face,still it was so deep and new,it confused many..

A universal truth,a universal doctrine then - there is really only twp such aspects in the final analysis..First universal truth He spoke - the Father is a Divine Mind that quitel literally calls it own Self into Being,is literally,the source of all creation and all EXPERIENCE of that creation....Second universal truth - I and the Father ARE ONE - no seperation between THAT mind,and THIS mind here and now - mad ein THAT image...

If there was Gnostic dogma,then there it is,and it WOULD stop there - for the gnostic Master will tell you this truth - then He will advise you to now go and sit with it in the deep silence of your own mind,to uncover it within you,first...Now of course the PRACTICE - the TOOL you use to get you into that state of mind,that is YOUR business,and really,anyhting will do,just as long as it gets you focused,motivated,and just as long as you are always open and honest about what you are doing,REMEMBERING always,you are INVOKING a Presence here and now...

See,all that doctrine and dogma then - thats just PREPARATION - thats just a framework,a method to get you in the right frame of mnd to even attempt the true communion...That ONLY happens He said,in the secret silence of the mind,once we have abandoned all those errors,preconceptions and judgements - the very things that give strctured doctrines such as above - forget it all He said,aproach fresh and new always - no preconception,no judgement,no bias - you aim to commune directly witin your Self,to the point that CREATION STARTS - encounter your Self THERE - BEFORE the judgements and agendas can influence at all,see what is revealed THERE..THIS is gnosis......

""If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.
When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

""Anyone here with two ears had better listen! There is light within a person of light, and it shines on the whole world. If it does not shine, it is dark."

" "I am the one who comes from what is whole. I was granted from the things of my Father." - "For this reason I say, if one is whole, one will be filled with light, but if one is divided, one will be filled with darkness." - "I disclose my mysteries to those who are worthy of my mysteries. "

Now,anyone who meditates deeply - and ALL those formerly mentioned practices above,are all forms of meditation in essence - will eventually encounter within them Self,a "blank space" - a silence in the mind,void and empty..THIS is the narrow gate He spoke of - truly,this reveals Gnosis - into this Void,will come this LIGHT - not figuritively,but ACTUALLY - and this Light IS the Fathers Presence,as explained directly by Christ - for it is HERE at this "place",a gap between creation,the only possible place where you can find the truth of who and what you are BEFORE you begin to mould it with all those preconceived ideas,notions,agendas,doctrines etc etc..Only HERE in the silence can universal truth be seen for what it truly is..THIS is why He said repeatedly,shun all the external influences,avoid it "hate" it even - hold no authoirty in anything except that which is revealed HERE in this communion....He said that if we ignore THIS communion - it is the sin against the Holy Ghost that there is no hope of forgiveness for - no hope of forgiveness,because this inner communion is DIRECT,mortal to Christ,and there is no higher authority literally - ignore this guidance He said is the most greivous sin...Hence again,follow no man,for they will inevitably lead you astray...

All the points raised above,the structuring and dogmatic approach - totaly against the essence of the endeavour...Christ actually only gave two rules for outer guidance - He said do not tell any lies - and do not do things you loathe,just to be accepted by others...Simple really...

How do you only tell the truth then..?..By following always,allowing always,that which is revealed in the authentic communion..And same for the things we loathe..How do we know we are not suposed to do a certain thing,especially if everyone else is doing it,customary..?..Again,only by seeking within for this inner guidance He said,always..THIS is gnosis...

Now we could look at each of the points raised if you like..The demiurge for instance,is the god of the bible it is true - but this is portrayed to be a confict,good vs evil - whereas actually Christ doesnt mention it at all - except to explain it,and tell us how to overcome te influence..Demiurge in the final analysis,is again simply,this lower mortal self,the trappings of the material existance - not inherantly evil - not inherantly good - crucially,perspective of Self,how we see and experience Self,determines our judgement of it...Labeling it already thus - holding thus to a PRECONCEIVED notion,is all part of the trap of the lower mind,and so literally,the demiurge has you already..

Do you see..?..

[knightofalbion]

Not so. Paul was the nemesis of true and original Christianity and led a major schism against the same.

Texts record how he and his henchmen attacked James and his brethren in the temple, savagely beating them. Paul left James - the brother of Jesus - for dead on the steps of the temple.

[Pleroma]

Originally Posted by PeteC-UK

Do you see..?..

The Gnostic traditions of Valentinians, Basilideans, Sethians, Ophites, Marconians etc existed for a reason. Its not wise to go after seeking for the kingdom of God blindly without taking help from one of those traditions who have already reached the kingdom of God with in us. I would take their teachings very seriously rather than going after the truth blindly as one Valentinian teachers says,

"The scriptures are ambiguous and the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition." (Irenaeus Against Heresies 3:2:1).

[Pleroma]

Originally Posted by knightofalbion

Not so. Paul was the nemesis of true and original Christianity and led a major schism against the same.

Texts record how he and his henchmen attacked James and his brethren in the temple, savagely beating them. Paul left James - the brother of Jesus - for dead on the steps of the temple.

The source of such notions is from the Clementine Literature, the Tübingen School and the Ebionites who failed to understand the superior teachings of Saint Paul and told false stories against him. If he was the arch-enemy of original Christianity was he mad to die for the same? None of the other apostles had the kind of zeal that he showed for orthodox Christianity preached by Jesus of Nazareth. It was Saint Paul who took Christianity from its Jewish setting and transformed it into a world beater. No wonder why he is called the great doctor of the church.

[knightofalbion]

Pauline Churchianity is not the same in any way to the Christ Consciousness Christianity originally taught by the Master Jesus.

Pauline Churchianity contradicts most of Jesus's genuine teachings that did make it into the Bible (New Testament).

In any case, numerous of the Pauline Epistles weren't even written by Paul and in a classic case of the biter being bit even those that were suffered interpolation. [And the Catholic Encyclopaedia admits the same.]

[PeteC-UK]

Hi Folks..

Pleroma; No one is ever seeking blindly - you have an inherant Divine spark - this is the source of your Imagination,your Will(power) and your Mind - the essence of "You"...THIS is always present - realised or ignored - so there is no actual blind seeking - except of course when we seek with the lower mind alone,and avoid the greater truth..It is indeed,the seeking "out in the world" and continually using that lower egoic mind, that blinds us to the truth of Self - conforming to such expectations,makes us hide our true nature even from our Self - hence He said,find your nature first,and folow always THAT..

See and understand - He told you right at the start,directly,that other men will always lead you astray - lo here,lo there,they are in error the quote says above...I thought His words would be enough for understanding to dawn...Along side such thngs,He tells us avoid the public displays,avoid the temple,the priest - Pharisees and scholars He says,took the keys of Wisdom and hid them from you...He said they dont understand,nor do they allow YOU to understand either..Indeed,He got angry with them - DAMN them He said,like dogs in a manger causing trouble..

Why then be so quick to replace them with more of the same..?...BECOME ME,HE said - not follow another and become them - but find for the Self,this Universal truth within ..The people you mention - these are individuals who saw more than a "surface wisdom" this is true,and so they are not orthodox in the snese we now have it - a different approach - but see and understand - they are still COMPLPETLY enmeshed within the PREVIOUS errors and teachings - enmeshed within division and the lower mindset - THEM vs Us - if that aspect persists in any way shape or form,then you can safely say,they do not understad Christ or the Father,have not experienced that UNION directly...There is no "them and us" to the Christ mind - I and the Father are One..

I will stress here - NONE of those mentioned - nor any other living mortal,has EVER attained their full Christ hood...ONLY Yeshua EVER..When you come to understand the metaphysics involved,it soon becomes obvious - spoken directly by Yeshua - that mortal man can NOT attain the true Divine realms and remain mortal - he MUST die complelty to fully ascend....Even Yeshuas mortal form had to perish to allow this..All those mentioned,started their schools of wisdom,whilst still fully mortal,did they not..?..And so,they as yet,cannot possibly reveal a universal truth they have not fuly experienced...

See here - you wil hear me say often,I know Christ intimately - and I will tell you just as often,do NOT take even my words here as some truth,but rather as advise - just as He said - to stop following others,and go uncover all this about the Self,for the Self,in the way He offered and taught..THAT is truly Gnosis...Man WILL lead you astray,for simply,all men are MORTAL,are they not..?..Signposts and guides perhaps,but not the destination...

A major flaw with orthodox christianity there - they follow the MAN who was Christ,and ignore the Divine Christ - ignore the Father entirely - put that aspect off until "after life" a future of judgement based on what they do here in life - all the while following mans words here in life,and so missing their true Self and the authentic guidance it offers,round in circles they go,trapped in the lower mind - traped literally in sin..Clinging blindly to the words of a book,and never seeking th einer counsel but relying on mans interpretation for their foundation..

Here - you propose a simialr thing - follow a man again,a different traditon perhaps - but nevertheless,the outocme is predictable - we will find this mans truth perhaps if we are lucky,HIS version - but we will not find crucially,who WE are - we will not experience IN THIS LIFETIME,who we are - and instead will always be stuck in that lower mind,preconceived notion of who and what we are...

Crucial difference - BORN AGAIN - you MUST come to this Self realisation here and now - else at the moment of death,you will face it anyway,in a rude manner,except then you will be ignorant and it will overwhelm you - hence again,you will cling desperalty to that which you know,truth of Self - and at that point the truth of Self will be A MORTAL truth still wont it..?.And so - you will again,create of your Self a MORTAL life - no spiritual progress will be made - and again,here in the new life you will be taught to hide and soon you will forget your Self again,back at square one trying in vain to remember who you are,to awaken to Self,to uncover this Gnosis...

You MUST be ressurected thus,here and now,before you die,or else this life is kind of in vain,wasted..Born again as they say,with this new eternal perspective of Self - and as we see true gnosis such as we seek,is not something an other mortla man can ever give you - by your own efforts you do this,for that is the only truth that will ever satisfy..Following man - any man - will inevitably with hold it from you..Even Yeshua said, do NOT just follow me - BECOME me HE said - and you will do even more than He...

[Pleroma]

Originally Posted by knightofalbion

Pauline Churchianity is not the same in any way to the Christ Consciousness Christianity originally taught by the Master Jesus.

Pauline Churchianity contradicts most of Jesus's genuine teachings that did make it into the Bible (New Testament).

In any case, numerous of the Pauline Epistles weren't even written by Paul and in a classic case of the biter being bit even those that were suffered interpolation. [And the Catholic Encyclopaedia admits the same.]

Jesus taught different level of teachings to different people. The Thomasine, Johnian, Mathewian and the Sophian community were all aware of the secret teachings of Jesus. Pauline community is no exception in it. In fact St. Paul received all his teachings directly from the post resurrected Jesus.