The Two Truths

[Ground]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

...
The absence of something, the total absence, the total not-being, non-existence of anything that is not there through the power of language and thought is shunyata, emptiness, the ultimate truth....

This he says and he simultaneously claims that he is not saying it and not thinking it when he says it. Why? Because he claims 'that is not there through the power of language and thought'. But who would notice it if he would neither think nor say it? Who would know emptiness if nobody ever came up with the term 'emptiness'?

That's why everything that appears to your mind exists only through the power of imputation, nothing exists from its own objective side, i.e. inherently. And since this is so there is no truth at all because the sentiment of 'truth' or 'true' assumes exactly that that which is taken as 'true' exists from its own objective side, i.e. inherently.

If one applies introspection one can identify this factor of consciousness that projects this sentiment of inherent existence or truth into appearing objects/phenomena. What is important however for this identification is that one perceives the same object/phenomenon with and without this factor being active because without experiencing the difference one cannot identify this factor. But if one succeeds in identifying this factor one knows exactly what emptiness of inherent existence is.
A standard routine is the well-known meditative analysis of the whole and its parts, e.g. a car or oneself. Through applying this rational analysis one may succeed to perceive the whole, e.g. the car or oneself, as a specific emptiness, i.e. as an object which lacks this factor of consciousness that it had before when it appeared as an inherently existing, i.e. as a true object.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

To me emptiness and completeness are not two separate things. So I am both being and not being in this way. Empty space, with awareness that space is compete and I create ongoing from that awareness in myself.

In the unfolding of my own self awareness and letting go process, passing through the emptiness to gain the awareness is not a fixed place or an ultimate place, its an awareness of yourself as "empty space" /awareness of yourself as "nothingness"...you enter this to be "aware" of yourself in this "space" to know yourself as more. To know yourself as a life, beyond your own mind conditioned, attached and held prisoner by yourself.

While alive in body when you have let go and clear to move through, it simply becomes a "new space" a creative foundation to continue living and relating from aware and open to do so in yourself. Life goes on..one way or another, so emptiness is simply a point of awareness to know that you can let go back to this point as a way of being, to know your complete.

So all movements are temporary in this view. What is moving in me, what is moving outside of me, becomes a part of the awareness and realization in the emptiness and completeness of life, that life continuously is moving through both aware and unaware all the time, creating life. Such is the nature of all life together.

While there is life, you can still be and hold the awareness of yourself as the "emptiness/empty space" So I am "not being" and I am "being" both at the same time in my expression and awareness.

I don't need to separate this out. I am aware of the whole "experience" "knowing" "awareness" moving as that. So I move myself aware and open as that..

In the continuous movements of life, truth is only a recognition point that "I know" entering into a "space" that is articulating your experience, of being "aware" of something, ..Entering the emptiness, I became aware that I now "know myself" as emptiness. I was aware of myself arriving at this point to "know" become aware of myself as "part of that "nothing" space"... I move from that point aware. It is not something I need to hold onto to be aware of myself as this.

The experience of this life seems to be "as" important to the awareness of "no life" hence why many are moving back into life open and aware of themselves in this way. To create a life that is more in harmony with the natural movements of life itself.


In the integration of all that into life, there is always more, simply because I am here as life creating life into being..

Very cool Nature and thank you for being so open and sharing your experience.

If you don't mind a couple of things to help me understand.

Can you tell me what empty space means to you?

You also use the term emptiness, that you passed through emptiness to get to your awareness. Can you explain what that means?

Thank you very much.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Ground

This he says and he simultaneously claims that he is not saying it and not thinking it when he says it. Why? Because he claims 'that is not there through the power of language and thought'. But who would notice it if he would neither think nor say it? Who would know emptiness if nobody ever came up with the term 'emptiness'?

That's why everything that appears to your mind exists only through the power of imputation, nothing exists from its own objective side, i.e. inherently. And since this is so there is no truth at all because the sentiment of 'truth' or 'true' assumes exactly that that which is taken as 'true' exists from its own objective side, i.e. inherently.

If one applies introspection one can identify this factor of consciousness that projects this sentiment of inherent existence or truth into appearing objects/phenomena. What is important however for this identification is that one perceives the same object/phenomenon with and without this factor being active because without experiencing the difference one cannot identify this factor. But if one succeeds in identifying this factor one knows exactly what emptiness of inherent existence is.
A standard routine is the well-known meditative analysis of the whole and its parts, e.g. a car or oneself. Through applying this rational analysis one may succeed to perceive the whole, e.g. the car or oneself, as a specific emptiness, i.e. as an object which lacks this factor of consciousness that it had before when it appeared as an inherently existing, i.e. as a true object.

Ground,

Please stop.

Basic meditation takes many people to experiences beyond thought. There are many people here who have experienced the Void in meditation and the various stages of Samadhi which are also beyond thought.

The first stage most people get to when they experience silence in daily life is what is called The Witness. It is a state of being beyond thought, you are a Witness to thoughts that float on by, a Witness to emotions, they become non attaching.

Many people experience this stuff that visit the Buddhist section and more generally this site.

I would highly suggest that you start meditation and start to realize these states of being yourself. You are really missing out a lot and it is all achievable.

Now if you need some help I can suggest some meditation, energy practices as well as practices to help deal with emotions and when you are caught up in thoughts.. To help you move past them and let them go.

You really are missing a lot and the practices would improve the quality of your life and help you get a deeper meaning of all those Dzogchen quotes you post.

All the best to you.

[Ground]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Ground,

Please stop.

Basic meditation ...

Well from a dzogchen perspective I would also advise people to stop meditation.

But here in this thread the topic is a dialectical view and in this context the analytical meditation I have mentioned is appropriate. So it is concentration combined with analysis resulting in direct perception of emptiness if - and only if - the capacity of the individual matches.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Ground

Well from a dzogchen perspective I would also advise people to stop meditation.

But here in this thread the topic is a dialectical view and in this context the analytical meditation I have mentioned is appropriate. So it is concentration combined with analysis resulting in direct perception of emptiness if - and only if - the capacity of the individual matches.

I would also suggest that you please stop posting about Dzogchen because your understanding is again lacking.

Dzogchen does teach meditation.

Your recent posts in the Dzogchen thread is a method of meditation

Here is some info from Dzogchen.org

The meditation practice of the Great Perfection is specifically designed to break up these obscuring mental habits of mind; at that moment what is revealed is what is really there: the pure mirror-like nature of intrinsic awareness, uncontaminated by the desire, aversion and frustration of conceptual thinking. In meditation we just relax and rest in that true nature. In this unlimited, sky-like mental space we can observe how thoughts spontaneously arise, abide, and disappear; we see that the exact same thoughts that cause us so much anxiety, aggravation and animosity when we cling to them, have no more reality to them than does writing on water.

In meditation we discover that no effort is required to dissolve thoughts. We discover that the very same thoughts that cause all of our problems actually arise by themselves and dissolve by themselves; all we have to do is relax and let them be.

In meditation we relax and rest in this state of the simultaneous arising, abiding, and disappearing of all mental phenomena: we abide in the natural state of the mind. We rest in the space between thoughts.

Because we merely recognize what is already there it is called the meditation of non-meditation. Because obscuring conceptual thoughts automatically disappear with their own arising – we do not need to make them disappear – it is called effortless.

Because cultivating this experience of the simultaneous arising and disappearing of thoughts undermines the negative emotions, and the negative actions that arise from clinging to those emotions, it is like a unique medicine that can cure all of our ailments.

Group Practice – These are meditation sessions, about 45 minutes each. A practice leader will open the session with a short dedication prayer or some chanting; then silent meditation, practicing the methods that Lama Surya has taught. While most people sit on cushions on the floor, comfortable chairs are also available.

Here is a link to a PDF called "Fundamentals of Dzogchen Meditation".

http://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/...Meditation.pdf


Here is another link that talks about the conceptual and moving beyond it as well methods of Dzogchen meditation... A good read.

https://studybuddhism.com/en/advance...a-and-dzogchen

Again, start practicing..

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Very cool Nature and thank you for being so open and sharing your experience.

If you don't mind a couple of things to help me understand.

Can you tell me what empty space means to you?

You also use the term emptiness, that you passed through emptiness to get to your awareness. Can you explain what that means?

Thank you very much.

I am not explaining anymore, I appreciate you asking. But your going over the same "Ground" over and over in your requests. So it shows me your only taking in what you want to notice because you want to match it to something you believe you know through Buddhist beliefs only and quite frankly I am not here to help you see what I see. I am my own experiencer and build my awareness to hold my own presence without needing to make fit or make right what is. Ground of Being when grounded in and of itself, sees completion, relates to others as already complete.

You can see for yourself, what you need for you. You have it all in you to find and source.


Your other focus is to find lack. It speaks throughout most of your discussions. It shows me that in your need to understand, that is part of your underlying intention, which is not where I wish to be relating from with those caught up in this space. Proving what you know and filling gaps of others, to prove them wrong or right is where you are caught up in your own need its not what I am about anymore.....So I am letting go.


Seeing "two truths" and relating yourself through that means, will have you caught up in yourself in that as yourself. So naturally you will use that as part of your need to prove, fill up and bring together two truths, but it has to fit your own view and belief, and I don't hold beliefs in me. To me you will not open the window of your own true nature while you remain here seeking to make everything fit something of your mind boxed into Buddhist beliefs. Understanding is not about fitting into something. It is understanding what is being shared more complete as a whole relatable connection for the one relating. It is not about my beliefs. It is about the other as they are more open to what is.

So you as you are, shows me your wanting to prove, fill up and make fit something into your view and belief and that is not for me.

If I feel complete then I have no need to be showing you my process or make you fit into what I am already. You can fit yourself ...your quite capable of that.

Thankyou



BE it..

Dzogchen.org The meditation practice of the Great Perfection is specifically designed to break up these obscuring mental habits of mind; at that moment what is revealed is what is really there: the pure mirror-like nature of intrinsic awareness, uncontaminated by the desire, aversion and frustration of conceptual thinking. In meditation we just relax and rest in that true nature. In this unlimited, sky-like mental space we can observe how thoughts spontaneously arise, abide, and disappear; we see that the exact same thoughts that cause us so much anxiety, aggravation and animosity when we cling to them, have no more reality to them than does writing on water.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

I am not explaining anymore, I appreciate you asking. But your going over the same "Ground" over and over in your requests. So it shows me your only taking in what you want to notice and quite frankly I am not here to help you see what I see.

You can see for yourself, what you need for you

Actually it was to help me understand you is all I am trying to do.

If it makes you uncomfortable, I am sorry and won't ask again.

Your other focus is to find lack. It speaks throughout most of your discussions. It shows me that in your need to understand, that is part of your underlying intention, which is not where I wish to be relating from with those caught up in this space. Proving what you know and filling gaps of others, to prove them wrong or right is where you are caught up in your own need.....So I am letting go.

No it is not.

I don't mind people searching and finding answers, I am doing the same thing.

What I don't like is when people say don't practice, don't meditate and that the Buddhist teachings are for dumb people all the while pretending to be someone of authority.

Then I tend to point out how they are misleading others...

Seeing "two truths" and relating yourself through that means, will have you caught up in yourself in that as yourself. So naturally you will use that as part of your need to prove, fill up and bring together two truths, but it has to fit your own view and belief, and I don't hold beliefs in me. To me you will not open the window of your own true nature while you remain here seeking to make everything fit something of your mind boxed into Buddhist beliefs. Understanding is not about fitting into something. It is understanding what is being shared more complete as a whole relatable connection for the one relating. It is not about my beliefs. It is about the other as they are.

So you as you are, shows me your wanting to prove, fill up and make fit something into your view and belief and that is not for me.

Thankyou.

lol, I am not a Buddhist

But thank you for informing me that believing in Buddhism is wrong.. I will take that into consideration

[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Actually it was to help me understand you is all I am trying to do.

If it makes you uncomfortable, I am sorry and won't ask again.




No it is not.

I don't mind people searching and finding answers, I am doing the same thing.

What I don't like is when people say don't practice, don't meditate and that the Buddhist teachings are for dumb people all the while pretending to be someone of authority.

Then I tend to point out how they are misleading others...





lol, I am not a Buddhist

But thank you for informing me that believing in Buddhism is wrong.. I will take that into consideration

'Then I tend to point out how they are misleading others '

I don't remember you pointing out to your friend when he called the Buddha a moron.... one rule for one, one rule for another I presume....

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

'Then I tend to point out how they are misleading others '

I don't remember you pointing out to your friend when he called the Buddha a moron.... one rule for one, one rule for another I presume....

You have not done anything but make negative posts in my thread.

If you can't make a post that is on topic I will ask the mods to talk to you.

Anyone can feel free to say the Buddha is a moron, I would disagree and I pointed out to you earlier he was referring to the interpretation.

He is also not telling people not to practice, and saying a tradition isn't Buddhist nor is he pretending to be an authority of a Buddhist tradition while presenting things that have been shown to be wildly incorrect...

It is like the Zen thing all over again... Dzogchen isn't Buddhist, isn't tantric, doesn't have meditation practices.... etc, etc..

[Visitor]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

...The pain from mental suffering is a thought....

Here, the word pain is used as a form of mental suffering. Both are the same thing.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

...we all know one can move beyond.

Physical pain is of the same energy, great masters have also shown that one can move beyond the pain and limitations of the body.

Pain without a story is not about suffering it is just a curious sensation, like a tingling without knowing what it is or what it means. What you call moving beyond the pain is simply having no story about pain.

Pain itself is a stimulus only. I think you are using the word pain to also describe 'suffering'. Suffering is a word that describes a level of non-acceptance of the pain stimulus.
As soon as one accepts the stimulus there is no story about it, no more suffering. Or no more, as you call it, pain.

Acceptance is the key to no suffering.

It's all about accepting things not going our (ego) way.
After all, it is only our ego that fears and suffers, and wants things to go its way to maintain its validation for worthiness/existence.

That is why the humble and meek (having no ego to maintain) move beyond suffering, and what you call pain.