Truth and Reality

[Chrysaetos]

During meditation your brain (and your body) is still active. I'd like to point out that we have around 100 billion neurons and 100's of trillions of synapses in the brain. It's kinda cheap to think the brain is not influencing one's mystical experience in any kind of way. Besides that, having mystical experiences requires us to interpreted the experiences. We rely on our cultural beliefs for that; people 'experience' specific deities, angels, and beings based on the books they've read, what they heard in church, what they like to hear etc.

Subjective 'spiritual' experiences cannot be a valuable tool to understand reality. If we seek truth the best method (though not flawless) is science, because it relies on repeatability and empiricism.
We know the earth orbits around the sun, and we know we need water to survive. Philosophical mental speculation is not going to change reality.

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

During meditation your brain (and your body) is still active. I'd like to point out that we have around 100 billion neurons and 100's of trillions of synapses in the brain. It's kinda cheap to think the brain is not influencing one's mystical experience in any kind of way. Besides that, having mystical experiences requires us to interpreted the experiences. We rely on our cultural beliefs for that; people 'experience' specific deities, angels, and beings based on the books they've read, what they heard in church, what they like to hear etc.

Subjective 'spiritual' experiences cannot be a valuable tool to understand reality. If we seek truth the best method (though not flawless) is science, because it relies on repeatability and empiricism.
We know the earth orbits around the sun, and we know we need water to survive. Philosophical mental speculation is not going to change reality.

well science represents human observation of nature - so it never says anything is true. what i believe it represents is "logical justified belief".

you see you say the earth orbits the sun - how do we know that? evidence?? we see it on video?, we understand the theory? sure we do.

my point is that is actually still belief - it is accepting a belief that the evidence is representing truth and reality. we can call it "justified, logical belief" - yes. a belief none the less.

its not saying dont believe it because we are not sure as we can be.

like science - before stating what is truth and reality we should remember the principle of uncertainty. its not saying reality changes because we choose not to believe in it - merely what we "know" about "reality" - (if "reality" exists) is actually a belief in reality - and we can't be 100% sure of anything.

that is the human condition.

Originally Posted by The Eagle

well science represents human observation of nature - so it never says anything is true. what i believe it represents is "logical justified belief".

you see you say the earth orbits the sun - how do we know that? evidence?? we see it on video?, we understand the theory? sure we do.

my point is that is actually still belief - it is accepting a belief that the evidence is representing truth and reality. we can call it "justified, logical belief" - yes. a belief none the less.

its not saying dont believe it because we are not sure as we can be.

like science - before stating what is truth and reality we should remember the principle of uncertainty. its not saying reality changes because we choose not to believe in it - merely what we "know" about "reality" - (if "reality" exists) is actually a belief in reality - and we can't be 100% sure of anything.

that is the human condition.

Everything is based on a belief....the belief that we are separate from God/Spirit, beyond belief is nothing and that is what is refereed to as Truth...in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Shabby

Everything is based on a belief....the belief that we are separate from God/Spirit, beyond belief is nothing and that is what is refereed to as Truth...in my opinion.

i think it would be fairer to leave it as everything is based on belief.

bringing in a belief of god existing/not existing in the first place is a belief - so whether seperate or not - both angles are beliefs.

can truth be "nothing" though? if there is "something" then "nothing" cant exist. lol.

now its a belief either way if something (anything) exists of course.

next phase to work out is if belief exists and if you can be sure about that - then you have the basis for truth.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...3&postcount=80

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...&postcount=103

Originally Posted by The Eagle

i think it would be fairer to leave it as everything is based on belief.

bringing in a belief of god existing/not existing in the first place is a belief - so whether seperate or not - both angles are beliefs.

can truth be "nothing" though? if there is "something" then "nothing" cant exist. lol.

now its a belief either way if something (anything) exists of course.

next phase to work out is if belief exists and if you can be sure about that - then you have the basis for truth.

Take all beliefs away....i still am no matter what you believe or I believe. Truth attempts to explain what that is. My belief that our true Self is God/spirit is just that....use a different word if those don't fit you, yet it changes nothing.

[BlueSky]

The human condition is such that it needs to see reality different than what it is. In whatever manner that works for the individual.
The individual expression of reality calls this truth and it is the reason there are so many "truths"......

The truth or reality is terrifying to the individual expression of reality known as the individual...because of the human condition of that expression.

To wake up is to see reality, not fantasy or more truths. Once reality is accepted, a new beginning happens for the indiviidual who is no longer plaqued by the human condition that all are born into.

Originally Posted by Shabby

Take all beliefs away....i still am no matter what you believe or I believe. Truth attempts to explain what that is. My belief that our true Self is God/spirit is just that....use a different word if those don't fit you, yet it changes nothing.

you are personifying truth. truth doesnt attempt to explain anything. truth is truth.

i am not saying beliefs change truth or reality - as i am trying to avoid a quantumn physics discussion. lol.

Originally Posted by WhiteShaman

Once reality is accepted, a new beginning happens for the indiviidual who is no longer plaqued by the human condition that all are born into.

i smell a belief in there!

a human no longer plagued by the human condition?? - not plagued by seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or thinking? sounds kinda boring!

however, indeed a belief that what you experience is reality offers good advantages.

[Xan]

Originally Posted by The Eagle

i would suggest it goes further than that. for instance at that point where you gain understanding through meditation - your mind is still functioning, concious and prevelant.

how we can suggest that is true is by the ability to learn and to know in that state. otherwise when you come out of meditation - you would not know what you just learnt. plus you must base this new found "awareness" - on a memmory of when you were meditating - i.e. belief again.

meditation puts your mind in certain direction to believe a certain way - to say that it represents "truth" or "knowing" or indeed "awareness" - is a belief.

i dont disregard meditation as a useful tool - in order to achieve what you want to achieve. i.e. the belief of clarity, or the belief of awareness, the belief of a "higher truth".

but the human condition is - is that its a belief either way.

Understanding and learning from meditation comes after the meditation state, in returning to ordinary human awareness through the physical senses and the interpreting mind.

In silent meditation we experience the nature of reality, and ourselves... without thought.


Xan