Zen Anybody

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

It's interesting how some of these philosophies that have teachings of an end goal of emptiness and formlessness have so many ideas about what our form is. Really, if we are perception, the perceiver, then anything we perceive by definition is not us. So if we see a form, an image, we can't be that form or image. So who or what saw the subtle body and what would a diagram or image of that seer look like? We can name "bodies" for infinity and still have not named ourselves. There is no way for the perceiver to perceive itself yet we are self aware. It's an amazing thing. We know ourselves to exist, yet as what?.... understanding, awareness, perception, love, compassion, empathy....well those are the higher........ we sometimes exist as anger etc..... so we are not what we are identifying with as those come and go.... what is left when we remove all perceptions.... emptiness. But then emptiness is a perception.... so remove that what is left.... awareness that knows itself to not be what it is aware of... but then awareness, if it is aware of what it is not, is self aware in a sense.... to describe what it is...can't be done... as it sees description so description is not it.

Ramana Maharshi has said that the body is nothing more than "projected thought".

The Light projects the "brain" and the impressions in the brain manifest as the body and the world. Interesting.

If one can consciously observe dream formation, the same process manifests. ("As above, so below". "Man is made in the image of God.")

[sentient]

In Tantric Buddhism the body is said to exist on three levels or dimensions simultaneously.
The gross body – the subtle or vajra body – and the very subtle body …..

*

Western thought thinks in terms of body – and – mind.

*

Shamanic/animist way is to see the totality of a person consisting of bodymind and spirit in union. Union of spirit and matter.
The spirit body permeates the physical body and radiates from it like seeing an aura.
‘Seeing’ is not so much perceiving with physical senses alone, but directly - energetically, with the totality of one’s being.
‘Seeing’ is a bit like ‘dreaming’ whilst awake.

*

Our bodies are given life from the midst of nothingness. Existing where there is nothing is the meaning of the phrase, "Form is emptiness." That all things are provided for by nothingness is the meaning of the phrase, "Emptiness is form." One should not think that these are two seperate things.
Yamamoto Tsunetomo

*

[Joe Mc]

I remember walking in a little mountain town at night with somebody and we were talking about all of this mystery that is life. We looked up at the stars and the infinity of space and this overwhelming sense of awe came over us. A few minutes before we were just in a normal little mountain town, now we were standing in a awe inspiring mysterious universe where very little was "known." Standing on the surface of a planet in infinite space and not "knowing" a single thing. Well we knew we knew nothing! Everything was different.


I took an elective in high school, the name of the class was "Epistemics." It somehow fulfilled a psychology credit. I should add I lived in a beach town on the west coast of the USA and so ya. Tofu and flip flops. I go into class on the first day and well, the students were largly the "hippy kids." The surfer boys and girls and the misfits of the school. The kid who took acid a lot was even in there. Some kids were not wearing shoes. A few of the females had unshaved legs. So this group was not into following "norms."

The teacher walks in and he has this side kick with him who looked like a homeless person. The "homeless person" proceeds to take a toothbrush out of his pocket and starts brushing his teeth without water or toothpaste. The teacher is chugging a huge mug of thick green liquid that he offers to some of the surfer kids who proceed to also drink from it. Anyway, he tells us all to forget everything we know about trees. Tells us they are living beings. Then we are instructed to go outside and be with these beings. Touch them, hug them, communicate with them. I did "notice" that if let go of preconceived ideas about things, I perceived them differently. Mountains and rivers and raccoons can completely change, but yea they don't change and we don't change, what we are accepting as a part of now changes, what we are identifying with changes and when the filters are put away, everything changes.[/quote]


Sounds like a lovely time. I like night skies, apparently they are becoming a bit more scarce with the build up of light from cities etc. Becoming awe-struck and finding our real place or our true nature is an amazing experience.
Becoming small in the universe, or humble, seems like the way we become infinite.

Your class sounds like a royal luxury, whether you knew it at the time or not ? When i first heard the word epistemology and what it meant i was a bit overwhelmed, with excitement too, it's almost the educational setting where i first heard the word wasn't quite aware or able to handle the power of the word itself. However, it was only a brief glance or a quick dance I had and didn't try to go further down that pathway for one reason and another. But when i first heard those words, " how do you know that ?" i was pretty enthused. The Bishop Berkeley said " to be be was to be perceived " and the teacher asked us ..does the table and chair in the room next door exist ? Well i thought that was the best thing i'd ever heard ...thanks for sharing !

Sorry about your quotation i messed it up.

*********************************************

[sentient]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

It's interesting how some of these philosophies that have teachings of an end goal of emptiness and formlessness have so many ideas about what our form is.

Here it is again, the either or thinking – not both and thinking.
Mind over matter thinking, the emptiness and formlessness over form thinking.

I trust the Buddhist way of thinking is more or somewhat akin to our Shamanic Spirit and Form seeing.

Had written this before:
It has been said, that mythology is the landscape of the soul, and a way of expressing the journeys of the soul.

‘Mind-over-matter’ is not mythological thinking. Mythological thinking is a non-thought rather, that can better be described as "seeing".
Seeing/Witnessing Spirit and Matter entwined in eternal embrace, like two lovers, one being the reflection of the other ......
‘Timelessness unfolding itself as time’. The immovable forever in motion. The formless expressing itself as form. Multiplicity as Oneness ....
How brave it is to live in the ever presence of The Lord of Death, that has given us Life !
‘The Unborn forever in birth & death cycle’.

When one becomes more centred in Spirit, one starts to lose the heavy sense of me, I, as something very solid and even "real" ... (and with the "two-edge-sword"... one starts to perceive all phenomenal existence .... and other people ...and situations, - as less solid and "real" also).

I suppose here is where the transparency of self and others, Spirit and Matter comes in ....
With this transparency one starts to silently witness one's body more as energy, therefore also "seeing-witnessing" everything else in more "energy-terms" .... and a sense of a dance of energies develops....that is more intuitive and co-creative with Spirit, than the old solid self forever dancing to the tune dictated by this self trying to fortify, validate, secure i.e. shield ... itself against the "external world" .....

*

[sentient]

P.S.
Westerners are said to be linear thinkers.
From form to formlessness …

In the East thought is more circular.
From form to formlessness brings one right back to seeing form in a totally new light.

*

[Phaelyn]

Unfortunately the human being is not a simple thing. There are a zillion kinds of thought. Thought is not one thing, nor does it have one source nor is it influenced by only one thing, nor does it produce or represent one thing. There are a zillion different relationships one can have with any particular thought. One can influence thought or thought can influence one. Mooji would say, thought cannot exist without us, but we can exist without it.

The mind and thought are always present, but what they are to us can change. If we change our relationship to them, their relationship with us is changed.

Thought exists in form and formlessness. The question is what it exists as.

Thinking is a noun but it's really a verb. An action, not an object. Running is also a noun lol. But yea we conceptualize actions as things. Complex processes as things.

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by sentient

In the East thought is more circular.
From form to formlessness brings one right back to seeing form in a totally new light.

*

Form in some Buddhism generally means conceptual. "Form" means the attention is referencing (experiencing) everything primarily though the conceptual or mind. So an "enlightened" one would "see form" in a new light. They would not be referencing (experiencing) everything primarily though the conceptual. Habitual reactionary thought for example or unconsciously automatically identifying with mechanical habitual thoughts.

[sentient]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

Form in some Buddhism generally means conceptual. "Form" means the attention is referencing (experiencing) everything primarily though the conceptual or mind. So an "enlightened" one would "see form" in a new light. They would not be referencing (experiencing) everything primarily though the conceptual. Habitual reactionary thought for example or unconsciously automatically identifying with mechanical habitual thoughts.

I have understood 'form' (rūpa) to primerily mean body, matter or material phenomena.

But yes, I do agree with you in the sense that to the 5th skandha consciousness, the 'separate-from-the world identity' with the mentality of mind-body dualism and with the left hemispheric linear thinking - reality is but a concept and I trust Zen considers linear thinking to be a delusion.

A good article on linear and circular thinking:
https://www.theosophical.org/publica...-west-and-east

*

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by sentient

mind-body dualism

I'd stick mind and body on the same side of that dualism concept. Consciousness or me would be on the other side. So it would be me + a particular animal's body and it's mind.

Then also this distinction between me and my body and it's mind, which can be experientially known as fact or reality, has nothing to do with the negatively used word, "dualism" or "dualistic." Being aware of what I am or not am is not dualistic in anyway. It is higher awareness. Really "dualism" or "dualistic" is describing a "me" that is identified with it's conditioning, identified with the mechanical, habitual, and reactionary thought or "mind."

Dualistic is two, me and not me, identified with and operating as one. Non-dualistic is one operating as one. But because the "one" is merged with the animal body and it's mind until the body dies, an awareness and understanding of that which is always present is needed to not have it be the determining factor of experience and action and to instead, have the atributes of me itself be the determining factors of experience and action.

Those not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma, assumes form, the body, to be the self, or the self as possessing form,
He assumes perception to be the self,
Those of integrity, well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma, does not assume feeling to be the self...
does not assume perception to be the self...
does not assume mental fabrications to be the self...
This, householder, is how one is afflicted in body but unafflicted
Buddha - Nakulapita Sutta

[Joe Mc]

Parrots live in the Western Lands;
forest huntsmen net them, bring them here.
Courtesans love to play with them, and so
they are well known at Court, in and out all day.
They’re given golden cages to dwell in,
but bolted in, their robes of plumes are ruined.
Better a swan, or a crane . . .
riding the winds high up, well known
to the clouds where they fly

HanShan

*****************************************
*****************************************