Alternative to soya?

It might be worth using an Internet search engine to try to determine how much soy would have to be consumed to be an issue w/ the phytoestrogens. It may be that eating a small amount of dietary soy wouldn’t be an issue.

What kind of vegan dishes are you talking about? May I suggest that just for fun, you do a Google search for vegan recipes? There are so many recipes now that people have worked out that are delicious and nourishing and that don't use soy.

Of course you may be referencing the meat substitutes that some use and all I can say to that is that hopefully, as they mature as vegans that they will realize that there are better ways to eat. Mind you, the same can be said for all the meat eaters who willing eat baked goods, canned and boxed stuff, and bottles of stuff (without reading labels the way most vegans do) and are getting a horrendous amount of soy. As you know, there is soy in the majority of products on supermarket shelves.

http://www.veganchef.com/
http://foodgawker.com/post/category/vegan/ Most of these are vegan and only one on the first page uses tofu. There are even pictures to tempt you!
http://busycooks.about.com/od/meatle...iemeatloaf.htm

plus many more individual recipes and a great many of the common recipes can be veganised. Did you know that you can make a first class brownie out of black beans? Or that cocoa added to whipped frozen bananas (plus a couple other ingredients) tastes just like chocolate ice cream? I even have a cookie recipe that doesn't use eggs or butter and it is so good, I dare you not to just eat the dough without baking it! So you don't have to eat meat or soy to have a totally tasty and nourishing assortment of foods to eat.

Oh debbie, im glad you havnt changed in the few months its been since we chatted

I was more talking the prepackaged vegan food. They usually use soy products as the meat suppliment in many of those foods. And also as far as Ive been told, soy milk is the recommended milk suppliment no?

Of course if you make all your own food its WAY easier to control the soy. But my main point was, that soy is the main replacement for meat in vagan meals (pre packaged), that means veggie dogs, the "chicken" nuggests and the meatless, meat, is soy, and or tofu (which is soy) and soy is the main suppliment for protien (its full of plant protien, but needs to be eaten with other veggie products to make the proper protien chains). Soy is used to make it so you dont have to eat as much food. You eliminate that, you need to find a way to make sure that you are getting enough proties/ammino acids, vit, and minerals.

If there is an alternative to soy and protien that is as useful as a meat replafcement, with the same amount of nutrients, im sure the OP would love to hear it


@ mattie, anything generally is ok in moderation. Even christianity :P (thats a joke btw lol, and not one meant with malice)

Originally Posted by mattie

It might be worth using an Internet search engine to try to determine how much soy would have to be consumed to be an issue w/ the phytoestrogens. It may be that eating a small amount of dietary soy wouldn’t be an issue.

http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/soymessina
This is a link to a vegan website that is written by two vegan registered dieticians. The page which is very well written and has references and documentation, opens to a discussion on the issues surrounding soy consumption and it's safety. In a nutshell, based on all available evidence, soy has benefits and it has drawbacks and ultimately the suggestion is that a varied diet that can include a bit of soy is optimal. At the end of the article it suggests that two or three servings per day, for a healthy person, male or female, is reasonable.

Virginia Messina who is an assistant professor at Loma Linda University and her husband, Mark Messina is also an associate professor there. The other RD who is mentioned in the page credits at the top is Jack Norris and he has written some good articles concerning other aspects of vegan nutrition (B12 and calcium and vitamin D).

I think for anyone interested in maximum vegan health, this is a website to bookmark. The people who write it are experts and they are vegans and they seem very careful to provide links to assist in further investigation.

Originally Posted by Time

Oh debbie, im glad you havnt changed in the few months its been since we chatted

I was more talking the prepackaged vegan food. They usually use soy products as the meat suppliment in many of those foods. And also as far as Ive been told, soy milk is the recommended milk suppliment no?

Of course if you make all your own food its WAY easier to control the soy. But my main point was, that soy is the main replacement for meat in vagan meals (pre packaged), that means veggie dogs, the "chicken" nuggests and the meatless, meat, is soy, and or tofu (which is soy) and soy is the main suppliment for protien (its full of plant protien, but needs to be eaten with other veggie products to make the proper protien chains). Soy is used to make it so you dont have to eat as much food. You eliminate that, you need to find a way to make sure that you are getting enough proties/ammino acids, vit, and minerals.

If there is an alternative to soy and protien that is as useful as a meat replafcement, with the same amount of nutrients, im sure the OP would love to hear it


@ mattie, anything generally is ok in moderation. Even christianity :P (thats a joke btw lol, and not one meant with malice)

Hi Time, the main thing wrong with the meat substitutes is the amounts of salts and 'flavourings' that might be used to make them. As you will notice, I did link a page that is written by registered dietitions and discusses quite abley, the benefits and drawbacks of soy. My feeling after reading through that page, is that perhaps the fears about soy in general, are somewhat unfounded and if that is the case, I would be inclined to lay the blame for the histrionics at the foot of those who have something to lose if more people transition to soy substitutes, which of course would be the meat and dairy industry. That being said, I think that your suggestion to use only organic soy products whenever possible is a good one too. I mean how much Round Up does the average person want to eat right?

I do take issue with your assumption that soy is the main replacement in vegan meals. Are you suggesting that that is what our meals are built around? Because if so, I think you are generalizing way too much. Sure lots of newbie vegans use those things as they transition away from meat and dairy, but as we collect recipes and learn and re-educate ourselves regarding cooking skills, it isn't long before we are buying those things less and less.

Soy is not the main supplement for protein as you seem to think. There are any number of nuts, grains, seeds, legumes, beans, etc., that provide protein and in most entree recipes in a vegan cook book, the centerpiece is often an item out of that rather large group. Even seitan, which is made out of wheat protein can be a marvelous substitute (for those who don't have celiac disease of course), having even a somewhat chewy texture to it. I once made a fabulous stew complete with nice fluffy (eggless) dumplings, using seitan and it was fantastic.

Soy isn't "used to make it so you dont have to eat as much food". it is just another plant that can be manipulated in a variety of ways and it has a variety of benefits as well as a variety of possible issues. And by the way, it has been admitted by the author of the suggestion that you need to combine plant foods to obtain complete proteins, that that was a false supposition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_combining will give you more complete information on how that theory was dismantled.

[quote]Hi Time, the main thing wrong with the meat substitutes is the amounts of salts and 'flavourings' that might be used to make them. As you will notice, I did link a page that is written by registered dietitions and discusses quite abley, the benefits and drawbacks of soy. My feeling after reading through that page, is that perhaps the fears about soy in general, are somewhat unfounded and if that is the case, I would be inclined to lay the blame for the histrionics at the foot of those who have something to lose if more people transition to soy substitutes, which of course would be the meat and dairy industry. That being said, I think that your suggestion to use only organic soy products whenever possible is a good one too. I mean how much Round Up does the average person want to eat right?[quote]

The main issue here is the OP is concerend with hormone levels in soy, and was looking for an alternative. Tofu and soy products are made specifically for vegans in north america (im aware tofu is an asian food, im stating the reason its in north america). And tofu is made from soy milk.

Fat-free (defatted) soybean meal is a primary, low-cost, source of protein for animal feeds and most prepackaged meals[citation needed]; soy vegetable oil is another product of processing the soybean crop. For example, soybean products such as textured vegetable protein (TVP) are ingredients in many meat and dairy analogues.[2] Soybeans produce significantly more protein per acre than most other uses of land.[3]

Soy is used specifically because of its low cost, and higher amount of protien.

Meat and dairy substitutes and extenders


Open package of a soy-based cream cheese alternative with chives
Soybeans can be processed to produce a texture and appearance similar to many other foods. For example, soybeans are the primary ingredient in many dairy product substitutes (e.g., soy milk, margarine, soy ice cream, soy yogurt, soy cheese, and soy cream cheese) and meat substitutes (e.g. veggie burgers). These substitutes are readily available in most supermarkets. Soy milk does not naturally contain significant amounts of digestible calcium. Many manufacturers of soy milk sell calcium-enriched products, as well. Soy is also used in tempeh: the beans (sometimes mixed with grain) are fermented into a solid cake.
Soy products also are used as a low-cost substitute in meat and poultry products.[61][62] Food service, retail and institutional (primarily school lunch and correctional) facilities regularly use such "extended" products. Extension may result in diminished flavor, but fat and cholesterol are reduced. Vitamin and mineral fortification can be used to make soy products nutritionally equivalent to animal protein; the protein quality is already roughly equivalent. The soy-based meat substitute textured vegetable protein has been used for more than 50 years as a way of inexpensively extending ground beef without reducing its nutritional value.[2][3][63][64]

Soy is the substitute for meat products, and is used in anything that is substituding milk or meat.

Well Time, if the OP reads through that page that I linked to (did you read it by the way?), I think she might find some of her fears allayed. The RD that wrote the page discusses the issues of soy and testosterone as well as soy and infant formula among other things.

Your quotations are reiterations of what I said about soy and that is that it is a plant product that can be manipulated in many ways and evidence of that is right there on the grocery shelves even amongst foods that vegans won't purchase. But to suggest that elimination of soy means you must go back to animal products is innacurate at best. It just means the cook has to continue to learn to be creative and to include a variety of foods in the diet.

The fact that its debated is enough for me to stay away from a lot of soy products. Its bad enough our drinking water is calk full of birth control

Originally Posted by Time

The fact that its debated is enough for me to stay away from a lot of soy products. Its bad enough our drinking water is calk full of birth control

Seems like lots of things are debated. Hmmm, meat is healthy/unhealthy, vegetarianism is healthy/unhealth, the US economy is going down/the US economy is A-OK, Libyans are glad to be rid of Gaddafi/Libyans are willing to fight for Gaddafi, Wikileaks is evil incarnate/Wikileaks is good for the world......goodness, there is a lot that you are going to have to stay away from!