Self knowing: the truth of yourself

[Gem]

Vows of morality are taken prior to any formality of practice because Buddhism rests on moral foundations. I start by talking on morality because that's the way things are done in Buddhist contexts.

In context of the 8 fold path, right speech, right action and right livelihood are the moral facets. Being truthful with yourself about of the motives driving thought, speech and deed is the essence of moral conduct. If we don't know what the mind is doing we 'know not what we do' and fly without a compass. One has to be self aware to maintain a moral foundation.

The topic goes deep, but this opening merely sets an ethical precept for discussions to come.

Be happy.

[JustBe]

If we don’t know what the mind is doing, we fly without a compass. Yes that’s very true. You see people reacting at times without this knowing. I’ve seen myself previously in this way. My focus dancing all over the place. Distracted and often reactive to what is. I’ve noticed when my subconscious mind cleared to the deepest level of my greatest fears,to the point where my awareness could lead the ‘show’, the 8fold path, of all those rights, you mention relating to Buddhist moral conduct, opened most naturally and I’m comfortable in myself and expression now.

One of the challenging aspects of being open and clear in yourself, means conversations with others, if they are still contained, is felt and noticed. Of course this becomes good practice to stay present with this and express your clarity/truth regardless.

The ‘feeling’ level..

My eldest brother is living with me. He’s moving through his own deeper truths. I can feel in him where he struggles and he often wonders why I can articulate what I feel in him. He thinks it’s something magical. It’s simply the truth of myself opened and clear “aware”. It does support validation and trust for him to feel what’s hard to feel. As he’s moving through his process I see that moral compass of truth expressed supports those he loves s differently. He notices change, not ‘fully aware’ of why, but I see the truth in him opening which becomes his new way of expressing and loving others.

[Shivani Devi]

"Self-knowledge" and "moral precepts" eh?

I want to try something here I should have tried ages ago.

I have a lot to say about the Noble Eightfold Path, however, before I waste my time typing up a few paragraphs nobody is ever going to read or reply to, I would like to know if anybody is really interested in anything I have to say on this topic or if I am better off just keeping my opinions to myself?

How very "Buddhist" of me.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

"Self-knowledge" and "moral precepts" eh?

I want to try something here I should have tried ages ago.

I have a lot to say about the Noble Eightfold Path, however, before I waste my time typing up a few paragraphs nobody is ever going to read or reply to, I would like to know if anybody is really interested in anything I have to say on this topic or if I am better off just keeping my opinions to myself?

How very "Buddhist" of me.

I always read your Posts Please join in...

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Gem

Vows of morality are taken prior to any formality of practice because Buddhism rests on moral foundations. I start by talking on morality because that's the way things are done in Buddhist contexts.

In context of the 8 fold path, right speech, right action and right livelihood are the moral facets. Being truthful with yourself about of the motives driving thought, speech and deed is the essence of moral conduct. If we don't know what the mind is doing we 'know not what we do' and fly without a compass. One has to be self aware to maintain a moral foundation.

The topic goes deep, but this opening merely sets an ethical precept for discussions to come.

Be happy.

Another thing that jumped out just now, was your mention of ‘what motives drive you’ in thought and speech and deed.

It’s often that underlying driver that can get neglected. It can also set up ‘having an agenda’ rather than moving from a place of authenticity that moves without any agenda, but rather ‘just sharing’ as each moment arises. ‘Clear’ to be itself, because you’ve allowed those drivers to fall away to just be yourself.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by sky123

I always read your Posts Please join in...

Thank you for the invitation into this discussion.

In Raja Yoga, a philosopher called Patanjali codified the Eight Limbs of Yoga based upon the Noble Eightfold Path of Buddhism.

The first two limbs of Yoga according to the Sutras are Yama and Niyama respectively.

Yama deals with the "right mindset" whilst Niyama deals with the "right observances" and these form the basis of the foundation of any Yogic or Spiritual practice. The Yamas are as follows:

Ahiṃsā (अहिंसा): Nonviolence, non-harming other living beings.
Satya (सत्य): truthfulness, non-falsehood.
Asteya (अस्तेय): non-stealing.
Brahmacharya (ब्रह्मचर्य): chastity, marital fidelity or sexual restraint.
Aparigraha (अपरिग्रहः): non-avarice, non-possessiveness.

The Niyamas are as follows:

Śauca (शौच): purity, clearness of mind, speech and body.
Santoṣa (सन्तोष): contentment, acceptance of others and of one's circumstances as they are, optimism for self.
Tapas (तपस्): austerity, self-discipline, persistent meditation, perseverance.
Svādhyāya (स्वाध्याय): study of self, self-reflection, introspection of self's thoughts, speeches and actions.
Īśvarapraṇidhāna (ईश्वरप्रणिधान): contemplation of the Ishvara (God/Supreme Being, Brahman, True Self, Unchanging Reality) and attunement to the supreme consciousness.

In the Buddhist view, the correct observances are as follows:

In Buddhist commentary (from the 5th to 13th centuries CE) we find the pañcavidha niyama or the fivefold niyama.

Please refer to the Buddhist section in this Wikipedia link because it is a lot to copy and paste:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niyama

The Eightfold path was condensed from the intersection between the 10 Pāramis and the 6 Pāramitās.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81ramit%C4%81

In the later transition to the codification of Yogic practice and treatise, it thus became:

Yamas - Moral and ethical guidelines
Niyamas - Purification, observances and ritual guidelines
Asanas - Physical postures guidelines
Pranayama - Breath regulation and control guidelines
Pratyahara - Withdrawing the senses from external gratification guidelines
Dharana - Focusing the mind in concentration and one pointed mindfulness guidelines
Dhyana - Meditation guidelines
Samadhi - Attaining Nirvana guidelines.

There is debate as to whether the 8 limbs of Yoga as written by Patanjali were meant to be implemented consecutively, however, I believe so.

The moral virtues according to Buddhist thought are:

Dāna - Charity and generosity....sharing of resources.
Śīla (Sanskrit: शील) or sīla (Pāli). Śīla in Buddhism is one of three sections of the Noble Eightfold Path, and is a code of conduct that embraces a commitment to harmony and self-restraint with the principal motivation being nonviolence, or freedom from causing harm. It has been variously described as virtue,right conduct, morality, moral discipline and precept.
Kshanti (Sanskrit kṣānti) or khanti (Pāli) is patience, forbearance and forgiveness.
Nekkhamma (Sanskrit: Naiṣkramya, नैष्काम्य) is a Pali word generally translated as "renunciation" or "the pleasure of renunciation" while also conveying more specifically "giving up the world and leading a holy life" or "freedom from lust, craving and desires." In Buddhism's Noble Eightfold Path, nekkhamma is the first practice associated with "Right Intention."
Prajñā (Sanskrit) or paññā (Pāli) "wisdom" is insight in the true nature of reality, namely primarily anicca (impermanence), dukkha (dissatisfaction or suffering), and anattā (non-self). In addition, Abhidharma and later Mahāyāna text may include suññatā (Skt; Eng: emptiness).
Vīrya (Sanskrit; Pāli: viriya) is a Buddhist term commonly translated as "energy", "diligence", "enthusiasm", or "effort". It can be defined as an attitude of gladly engaging in wholesome activities, and it functions to cause one to accomplish wholesome or virtuous actions.
dhyāna (Sanskrit) or jhāna (Pali) is the training of the mind, commonly translated as meditation, to withdraw the mind from the automatic responses to sense-impressions, and leading to a "state of perfect equanimity and awareness (upekkhā-sati-parisuddhi).
Sacca (Pāli; Sanskrit Satya) word meaning "real" or "true". In early Buddhist literature, sacca is often found in the context of the "Four Noble Truths", a crystallization of Buddhist wisdom. In addition, sacca is one of the ten pāramitās or "most high" a bodhisatta must develop in order to become a Buddha.
Maitrī (Sanskrit; Pali: mettā) means benevolence, loving-kindness, friendliness, good will, compassion and active interest in others. It is the first of the four sublime states (Brahmaviharas) and one of the ten pāramīs of the Theravāda school of Buddhism.

Now my fingers hurt. LOL

[sky]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Thank you for the invitation into this discussion.

In Raja Yoga, a philosopher called Patanjali codified the Eight Limbs of Yoga based upon the Noble Eightfold Path of Buddhism.

The first two limbs of Yoga according to the Sutras are Yama and Niyama respectively.

Yama deals with the "right mindset" whilst Niyama deals with the "right observances" and these form the basis of the foundation of any Yogic or Spiritual practice. The Yamas are as follows:

Ahiṃsā (अहिंसा): Nonviolence, non-harming other living beings.
Satya (सत्य): truthfulness, non-falsehood.
Asteya (अस्तेय): non-stealing.
Brahmacharya (ब्रह्मचर्य): chastity, marital fidelity or sexual restraint.
Aparigraha (अपरिग्रहः): non-avarice, non-possessiveness.

The Niyamas are as follows:

Śauca (शौच): purity, clearness of mind, speech and body.
Santoṣa (सन्तोष): contentment, acceptance of others and of one's circumstances as they are, optimism for self.
Tapas (तपस्): austerity, self-discipline, persistent meditation, perseverance.
Svādhyāya (स्वाध्याय): study of self, self-reflection, introspection of self's thoughts, speeches and actions.
Īśvarapraṇidhāna (ईश्वरप्रणिधान): contemplation of the Ishvara (God/Supreme Being, Brahman, True Self, Unchanging Reality) and attunement to the supreme consciousness.

In the Buddhist view, the correct observances are as follows:

In Buddhist commentary (from the 5th to 13th centuries CE) we find the pañcavidha niyama or the fivefold niyama.

Please refer to the Buddhist section in this Wikipedia link because it is a lot to copy and paste:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niyama

The Eightfold path was condensed from the intersection between the 10 Pāramis and the 6 Pāramitās.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81ramit%C4%81

In the later transition to the codification of Yogic practice and treatise, it thus became:

Yamas - Moral and ethical guidelines
Niyamas - Purification, observances and ritual guidelines
Asanas - Physical postures guidelines
Pranayama - Breath regulation and control guidelines
Pratyahara - Withdrawing the senses from external gratification guidelines
Dharana - Focusing the mind in concentration and one pointed mindfulness guidelines
Dhyana - Meditation guidelines
Samadhi - Attaining Nirvana guidelines.

There is debate as to whether the 8 limbs of Yoga as written by Patanjali were meant to be implemented consecutively, however, I believe so.

The moral virtues according to Buddhist thought are:

Dāna - Charity and generosity....sharing of resources.
Śīla (Sanskrit: शील) or sīla (Pāli). Śīla in Buddhism is one of three sections of the Noble Eightfold Path, and is a code of conduct that embraces a commitment to harmony and self-restraint with the principal motivation being nonviolence, or freedom from causing harm. It has been variously described as virtue,right conduct, morality, moral discipline and precept.
Kshanti (Sanskrit kṣānti) or khanti (Pāli) is patience, forbearance and forgiveness.
Nekkhamma (Sanskrit: Naiṣkramya, नैष्काम्य) is a Pali word generally translated as "renunciation" or "the pleasure of renunciation" while also conveying more specifically "giving up the world and leading a holy life" or "freedom from lust, craving and desires." In Buddhism's Noble Eightfold Path, nekkhamma is the first practice associated with "Right Intention."
Prajñā (Sanskrit) or paññā (Pāli) "wisdom" is insight in the true nature of reality, namely primarily anicca (impermanence), dukkha (dissatisfaction or suffering), and anattā (non-self). In addition, Abhidharma and later Mahāyāna text may include suññatā (Skt; Eng: emptiness).
Vīrya (Sanskrit; Pāli: viriya) is a Buddhist term commonly translated as "energy", "diligence", "enthusiasm", or "effort". It can be defined as an attitude of gladly engaging in wholesome activities, and it functions to cause one to accomplish wholesome or virtuous actions.
dhyāna (Sanskrit) or jhāna (Pali) is the training of the mind, commonly translated as meditation, to withdraw the mind from the automatic responses to sense-impressions, and leading to a "state of perfect equanimity and awareness (upekkhā-sati-parisuddhi).
Sacca (Pāli; Sanskrit Satya) word meaning "real" or "true". In early Buddhist literature, sacca is often found in the context of the "Four Noble Truths", a crystallization of Buddhist wisdom. In addition, sacca is one of the ten pāramitās or "most high" a bodhisatta must develop in order to become a Buddha.
Maitrī (Sanskrit; Pali: mettā) means benevolence, loving-kindness, friendliness, good will, compassion and active interest in others. It is the first of the four sublime states (Brahmaviharas) and one of the ten pāramīs of the Theravāda school of Buddhism.

Now my fingers hurt. LOL

Thanks Shiv for your input. As I know very little about Hinduism I found it really interesting.

[Gem]

I believe in virtue. That is, morality is universal and is not something people make up. If morality is made up that means we have to obey it, but if it's inherent to nature, we need only understand it.


To understand in reference to the 4 Noble Truths, suffering and what causes it, one is enabled goodness without a shred of obedience, and as the cause in terms of kamma is volition, one need know the nature of their intent. This requires truthfulness. If virtue is universal, then no one possesses virtue. Gem cannot be virtuous in any sense other than being an expression of that universal quality. We reasonably say that morality is selflessness because virtue is universal, whereas selfishness implies greed: the nexus of suffering.


If, as I say it is, virtue is universal, then it is inherent in nature's law, and you cannot obey nature's law because you are inevitably subject to it. You can't make it other than it is, and because this is true, you cannot choose to be virtuous nor be nor become virtuous. You can only understand nature's way and surrender completely in recognising the utter futility of your own individual volition.


The virtue, as natures law, is the truth. Initially the honesty with your intent, then upon understanding, the trust which surrenders your volition to that of God, so to speak. I'm not a God botherer, so I only speak figuratively when I say, you express virtue when the will of God moves you.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Thank you for the invitation into this discussion.

In Raja Yoga, a philosopher called Patanjali codified the Eight Limbs of Yoga based upon the Noble Eightfold Path of Buddhism.

The first two limbs of Yoga according to the Sutras are Yama and Niyama respectively.

Yama deals with the "right mindset" whilst Niyama deals with the "right observances" and these form the basis of the foundation of any Yogic or Spiritual practice. The Yamas are as follows:

Ahiṃsā (अहिंसा): Nonviolence, non-harming other living beings.
Satya (सत्य): truthfulness, non-falsehood.
Asteya (अस्तेय): non-stealing.
Brahmacharya (ब्रह्मचर्य): chastity, marital fidelity or sexual restraint.
Aparigraha (अपरिग्रहः): non-avarice, non-possessiveness.

The Niyamas are as follows:

Śauca (शौच): purity, clearness of mind, speech and body.
Santoṣa (सन्तोष): contentment, acceptance of others and of one's circumstances as they are, optimism for self.
Tapas (तपस्): austerity, self-discipline, persistent meditation, perseverance.
Svādhyāya (स्वाध्याय): study of self, self-reflection, introspection of self's thoughts, speeches and actions.
Īśvarapraṇidhāna (ईश्वरप्रणिधान): contemplation of the Ishvara (God/Supreme Being, Brahman, True Self, Unchanging Reality) and attunement to the supreme consciousness.

In the Buddhist view, the correct observances are as follows:

In Buddhist commentary (from the 5th to 13th centuries CE) we find the pañcavidha niyama or the fivefold niyama.

Please refer to the Buddhist section in this Wikipedia link because it is a lot to copy and paste:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niyama

The Eightfold path was condensed from the intersection between the 10 Pāramis and the 6 Pāramitās.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81ramit%C4%81

In the later transition to the codification of Yogic practice and treatise, it thus became:

Yamas - Moral and ethical guidelines
Niyamas - Purification, observances and ritual guidelines
Asanas - Physical postures guidelines
Pranayama - Breath regulation and control guidelines
Pratyahara - Withdrawing the senses from external gratification guidelines
Dharana - Focusing the mind in concentration and one pointed mindfulness guidelines
Dhyana - Meditation guidelines
Samadhi - Attaining Nirvana guidelines.

There is debate as to whether the 8 limbs of Yoga as written by Patanjali were meant to be implemented consecutively, however, I believe so.

The moral virtues according to Buddhist thought are:

Dāna - Charity and generosity....sharing of resources.
Śīla (Sanskrit: शील) or sīla (Pāli). Śīla in Buddhism is one of three sections of the Noble Eightfold Path, and is a code of conduct that embraces a commitment to harmony and self-restraint with the principal motivation being nonviolence, or freedom from causing harm. It has been variously described as virtue,right conduct, morality, moral discipline and precept.
Kshanti (Sanskrit kṣānti) or khanti (Pāli) is patience, forbearance and forgiveness.
Nekkhamma (Sanskrit: Naiṣkramya, नैष्काम्य) is a Pali word generally translated as "renunciation" or "the pleasure of renunciation" while also conveying more specifically "giving up the world and leading a holy life" or "freedom from lust, craving and desires." In Buddhism's Noble Eightfold Path, nekkhamma is the first practice associated with "Right Intention."
Prajñā (Sanskrit) or paññā (Pāli) "wisdom" is insight in the true nature of reality, namely primarily anicca (impermanence), dukkha (dissatisfaction or suffering), and anattā (non-self). In addition, Abhidharma and later Mahāyāna text may include suññatā (Skt; Eng: emptiness).
Vīrya (Sanskrit; Pāli: viriya) is a Buddhist term commonly translated as "energy", "diligence", "enthusiasm", or "effort". It can be defined as an attitude of gladly engaging in wholesome activities, and it functions to cause one to accomplish wholesome or virtuous actions.
dhyāna (Sanskrit) or jhāna (Pali) is the training of the mind, commonly translated as meditation, to withdraw the mind from the automatic responses to sense-impressions, and leading to a "state of perfect equanimity and awareness (upekkhā-sati-parisuddhi).
Sacca (Pāli; Sanskrit Satya) word meaning "real" or "true". In early Buddhist literature, sacca is often found in the context of the "Four Noble Truths", a crystallization of Buddhist wisdom. In addition, sacca is one of the ten pāramitās or "most high" a bodhisatta must develop in order to become a Buddha.
Maitrī (Sanskrit; Pali: mettā) means benevolence, loving-kindness, friendliness, good will, compassion and active interest in others. It is the first of the four sublime states (Brahmaviharas) and one of the ten pāramīs of the Theravāda school of Buddhism.

Now my fingers hurt. LOL

Wow Thank You Shivani Devi!

[Gem]

Whereas in formal settings there are protocols and codes of behaviour to assist with virtuous foundations, the forum here has no such structure, but as sentience is self awareness, we have the ability to know what nature of will is generated in the mind, and therefore capable of good conduct. Here we make no vows, but in keeping with it being 'Buddhist', an ethical foundation has to underpin the dialogue so that 'right speech' is maintained.


With that being said and done, there is another Buddhist formality that precedes 'practice', and this thread isn't just lip service since practice is undertaken here as far as one is able. The formality we call 'taking refuge' is like placing trust in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.



In the forum context, we are the Sangha, so we have the onus of being trustworthy and all those among us shoud be able to feel safe and not be at risk of abuse, accusation, and so forth - hence unconditional high regard should characterise our relations.


'Dhamma' as it being used here means the 'the way of nature' and it also means the Buddhas teachings (which are about nature's way). Refuge in dhamma fundamentally means trust in nature's way and give the benefit of the doubt to Buddha's teachings.



'Buddha' is the enlightenment quality. We call Gotama 'Buddha' because he is expressive of that quality, but Buddha is not a person - there are so many enlightenment expressions - and better regard yourself as such and surrender to the truth of yourself (whatever that might be).



This is the surrender, but I suggest that this forum lacks the protections that make this thread worthy of refuge, so be tentative about taking refuge here while ensuring you yourself are safe refuge. May metta be radiant between us.


These two: morality and refuge, will be helpful, and you'll notice as you undertake it in practice that the internal and environmental conditions for self-awareness and mindfulness are being established - These need to be nurtured in the interests of benefit rather than harm.