Conducive to purpose

[sky]

Originally Posted by Rain95

Buddha says to drop them as you don't need them on your journey anymore...

He does not say the journey is over or completed....

Buddha was not speaking of a final destination or achievement, an enlightenment. But then this word "enlightenment" is being misunderstood as well. In Buddha's teachings there is no self, so what is enlightened? What is enlightenment? It is a state of consciousness. A way of being, A realization.

Buddha was saying to not carry teachings once you have got what they are pointing to... liberation from thought based conceptual self, to continue your journey actualizing them, living them.



Once the raft is dropped, one discerns and walks in right perception...



Buddha is pointing out that "teachings" are not the focus as they belong to the delusional idea of self.

https://plumvillage.org/sutra/discou...catch-a-snake/



Lived/actualized the teachings. Transformed them into experience. Like dropping that raft on the other shore and walking on without it....Walking.... living them....journey that never ends. Staying in right perception and discernment.

And as long as you're still paddling, take care of the raft

[sky]

Originally Posted by Gem

I guess that alludes to the word 'skillful' as well.

Yes I think so, as skilful has flexibility.

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by sky123

And as long as you're still paddling, take care of the raft

The raft is what keeps you in one place. You have an illusion you are moving, but the raft is moving, not you. You stay in one spot on that raft with zero walking or moving about. Your position in the raft does not change. The water and raft move, do the work, not you. Being dependent on the raft for moving, doing zero moving yourself, believing yourself to be making progress and moving...ya that's identifying with thinking and teachings explained.

To walk forward, with right perception, takes constant paying attention, constant awareness. The raft is identifying with thought, static fixed habitual thought. Life is constant change. Each moment is new with new content and we are new moment to moment. That is what is experienced. The non-thought based what is. Teachings are the raft. Solid, static, fixed. There is no relationship between the conceptual and the actual.

That idea, I will arrive someday at enlightenment, is a thought based fantasy.There is no arriving. There is nothing to arrive. You get out of the raft, leave it behind, and walk endlessly in awe and wonder in the ever changing now. Leaving the raft behind, actualizing the teachings, living them, is the beginning, not the end. Enlightenment is stepping out of the raft and walking on. On your own feet now, with the back pack of all your beliefs and opinions and thoughts left behind.

The idea of arriving at enlightenment, makes it all a dead static thing. Fixed, not fluid, static.... that is a thought based concept of spirituality. Leaving the raft sets one free, it does not bind one to anything or anyone. It binds one to freedom and joy.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Rain95

The raft is what keeps you in one place. You have an illusion you are moving, but the raft is moving, not you. You stay in one spot on that raft with zero walking or moving about. Your position in the raft does not change. The water and raft move, do the work, not you. Being dependent on the raft for moving, doing zero moving yourself, believing yourself to be making progress and moving...ya that's identifying with thinking and teachings explained.

To walk forward, with right perception, takes constant paying attention, constant awareness. The raft is identifying with thought, static fixed habitual thought. Life is constant change. Each moment is new with new content and we are new moment to moment. That is what is experienced. The non-thought based what is. Teachings are the raft. Solid, static, fixed. There is no relationship between the conceptual and the actual.

That idea, I will arrive someday at enlightenment, is a thought based fantasy.There is no arriving. There is nothing to arrive. You get out of the raft, leave it behind, and walk endlessly in awe and wonder in the ever changing now. Leaving the raft behind, actualizing the teachings, living them, is the beginning, not the end. Enlightenment is stepping out of the raft and walking on. On your own feet now, with the back pack of all your beliefs and opinions and thoughts left behind.

The idea of arriving at enlightenment, makes it all a dead static thing. Fixed, not fluid, static.... that is a thought based concept of spirituality. Leaving the raft sets one free, it does not bind one to anything or anyone. It binds one to freedom and joy.

Are you enlightened then?

So you disagree with the Buddha with regard to stages?

You do not vanish into Nirvana, nor does Nirvana abide in you, for Nirvana transcends all duality of knowing and known, of being and non-being.

Those who see thee thus, serene and beyond conception, will be emancipated from attachment, will be cleansed of all defilements, both in this world and in the spiritual world beyond.

In this world whose nature is like a dream, there is place for praise and blame, but in the ultimate Reality of Dharmakaya, which is far beyond the senses and the discriminating mind, what is there to praise? O you who are most Wise!

Then said Mahamati the Bodhisattva-Mahasattva: O blessed One, Sugata, Arhat and Fully-Enlightened One, pray tell us about the realization of Noble Wisdom which is beyond the path and usage of philosophers; which is devoid of all predicates such as being and non-being, oneness and otherness, both-ness and non-both-ness, existence and non-existence, eternity and non-eternity; which has nothing to do with individuality and generality, nor false-imagination, nor any illusions arising from the mind itself; but which manifests itself as the Truth of Highest Reality. By which, going up continuously by the stages of purification, one enters at last upon the stage of Tathágata-hood, whereby, by the power of his original vows unattended by any striving, one will radiate its influence to infinite worlds, like a gem reflecting its variegated colors, whereby I and other Bodhisattvas-Mahasattvas will be enabled to bring all beings to the same perfection of virtue.

http://buddhasutra.com/files/lankavatara_sutra.htm

There is much, much more.

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by Rain95

Is surfing on a wave found in a book about it?

Originally Posted by sky123

Yes it is actually, ...

Originally Posted by sky123

It's important to get a correct interpretation of his teachings.
The doctrine on Anatta might help you.

More pointing at rafts. Look here for it.....in these words or teachings. You can't find it in words or teachings.

Concepts of surfing, ideas about surfing, books and words about surfing, none of that is an experience of surfing. It's exactly the same with enlightenment and liberation, but even more so. In enlightenment and liberation, looking at words actually prevents you from experiencing those things.

Thus Buddha saying clearly....The Buddha taught, “I have given this teaching on the raft many times to remind you how necessary it is to let go of all the true teachings,..."

You can't be liberated holding onto an idea of what it is. Nor enlightened. Nor ride on a wave on a piece of wood.... each ride on a wave completely unique and different and new. It is not found in a concept or teaching or book. It is lived experience, moment to moment, brand new each second. Nothing carried forward from past to present.

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

There is much, much more.

Yes unending in lived experience, free of the rafts. Dropping the raft is the beginning of the path, not the end.

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

So you disagree with the Buddha with regard to stages?

I agree with those words attributed to Buddha. There are lots of stages, more than can be counted. Dropping the raft is a beginning stage imho. A small step up from animal consciousness.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Rain95

I agree with those words attributed to Buddha. There are lots of stages, more than can be counted. Dropping the raft is a beginning stage imho. A small step up from animal consciousness.

Then you are missing the meaning of the teachings.

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

you are missing the meaning of the teachings.

Yes true. I don't find meaning in teachings. experience is what the teachings point to. I assume you mean more thought/thinking as meaning?

[Gem]

I'm always trying to communicate the sublime, and I don't present text so much because the notion of a true meaning is a way of drawing conclusions in the mind, as knowledge, where the real-lived doesn't so much answer the questions as it ends with a mystery, and the lived spiritual is more like the vitality of life itself that any particular knowledge. 'What it is like' to live has a direct connection to an infinite outpouring which is not the same as the universe and all the experience there, as there is an aspect which has no relativity which no one can explain, for there is no cause nor reason why or how, and there is no method of getting there. It is realised suddenly by surprise like 'oh that', and is regardless of quantified stages of spiritual advancement. Yet still, that seems to awaken in or throughout the mind and body, and there is a process of purification, cleansing, healing, alignment or what have you.



It seems to me people think the immediate precludes the process, and by any process of logic that would be the case, but it isn't linear in logic, being acausal, nor is it objective. It's just a fact in the sense that it is the reality of experience as it is, so apart from postulating about the philosophy, which is indeed wonderful intellectual entertainment, every aspect of the teaching has no definitive meaning. The meaning just becomes broader in its perspective. For example I was saying 'right' is represented by the elephant story, and it is, but not completely, so Sky says it's represented by the harp story, which it is, but not completely. 'Right' pertains to that which is sublime, so it never concludes as a definitive meaning - we could write a 10000 word essay on it, and 10000 of those, but never actually nail it down.