Integrate or Renounce .

[Nature Grows]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Yes, well said NatureGrows.
I'll give my thoughts next in response to the OP, but IMO you highlighted some key truths here.

Peace & blessings
7L

Thank you 7luminaries.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by BlueSky

Over the years I've been attached to the fingers that touch the keyboard and I've been non attached to the fingers that touch the keyboard but now I just touch the keyboard without any thought of being attached or non attached to the fingers.
I'm happier now cuz I'm not attached to whether I'm attached or not lol.
I'm also happier now because I'm not attaching to believing I know I'm non attached lol

It's a funny old game for sure . Perhaps when your fingers are are chopped off or you lose your sight, then one doesn't realize until then how much one was attached to them .

One's children, one's roof over their head, their job, partners, parents etc, etc ..

I think it would be nice to float around without a care in the world and not be attached to anything, not even attached to one's own life experience of this world ... One would not care about self preservation or how they looked, or what other's thought of them ..

I suppose in this respect true detachment would be like that ..



x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Yes. If carried too far, it's a disassociation or a denial at some level, because dealing with the reality of who we are right here, right now is difficult. Life is a journey of grounding and integrating your spirit and your consciousness within your heart, your body, and your environment, and the hope is that you get the hang of it before it's time to move on once more for this go-round.

There are reasons why we are here, why we incarnate. And as you said in an earlier post on another thread, at some point, the point is to remember. If one seeks to always flee the scene, it'll be difficult to ever come to that place of truth.

Once we begin to remember, though, it's the same thing all over again. Knowing who we are and why we're here, and what's on our plate, then do we still have the courage to be present to ourselves and remain grounded in the moment? That's the other big question, then, at that point.

BTW Dazzer, I think you skipped my 2nd post (#33)...so just mentioning in case you didn't see it. It was addressing your question on renunciation of unwanted aspects of the self...which I think you rightly tied into the whole issue of why some renounce...as they'd not have to work through these ugly bits, then, would they? At least, not right now

Peace & blessings Daz
7L

Fleeing the scene or renouncing, attending the roses and not the weeds, the tree tops and not the roots are all fragmented actions / expressions but one cannot help what one does .

What I would say presents itself to any individual can be resolved or not, integrated or not depending on where an individual is at within themselves . It can be seen to be easier to give to charity when you give a little of what interest you have made on your wealth than it is to give away your last dollar .

Then again, if you love to give and find it comes natural to you, you won't won't it hard to give away your last dollar .

It is also fine to keep your wealth and not give it away in any shape or form, it depends on what presents itself to you and what you do and how you feel about what you do .


In regards to your post (33) and not renouncing and self healing, well for some they are not consciously aware of aspects that need healing, for myself several lifetimes past until I was ready to face my demons . For peeps that are not aware of their demons they are not strictly renouncing those aspects on one level because they are not consciously aware of them .. although on another level they have banished them from their immediate awareness .

It can get complicated because there are many levels and aspects to self and what you are .

In regards to my self healing work it's mainly about connection / refining / purification and self d.n.a maintenance, bringing in the light and expanding .. I am not as much as I can tell about self healing aspects that surfaced like before, It just takes a lot of time and dedication as you know .

It's not for all to spend a huge chunk of their lives doing this self work, it's not mean't for all .. when a peep realizes the multi faceted self and in a multidimensional way integrating them altogether and then expanding for use of a better word then yet again, depending on where one is at within themselves depends on whether it's achievable or not in this lifetime .. for those on a similar pathway know they have to keep going regardless .



x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

I have to go back to definitions because that's where it all begins, are we this self or that self and yet none of them? And if we are defining selfs - Higher Self, lower self, ego..... whatever other definition... what are we really doing? Dis-integrating ourselves?It seems that even in Samadhi where the self is transcended there's still a sense of I Am, a focus of consciousness.

Tyere's a myriad of self(s) and another myriad of definitions of those self(s), what should be integrated and which should be renounced - and awareness of each within its context. If we're going to listen to Spirituality we are multi-dimensional beings and a 'self' for me is simply the focus of consciousness at that moment, because I don't think our consciousness could cope with being a number of selfs at the same time.

"Infinitely large and infinitely small, no difference, for definitions have vanished and no boundaries are seen.
So too with Being and non-Being. Don't waste time in doubts and arguments that have nothing to do with this.
One thing, all things: move along and intermingle without distinction"




VERSES ON THE FAITH MIND
by Sosan Zenji (Seng-Tsan) - the third Zen Patriarch.
Translated by Ricahard B. Clarke.


The can of worms is in our heads.

Speaking of definitions and self identifications it's difficult to avoid them isn't it .

You see any self reflection made through perceiving and experiencing this reality is met with a self reference .

No-one functions in this life experience without a self reflected reference .

Different stages of life experience from the babe in arms to maturity potentially brings with it a different sense and knowing what one 'is' or isn't .

Even the conclusion that I AM nothing or I AM indescribable is a self identified measure .

We can't help but associate what we are unless we are beyond any self reflection .

That really is what S.R. is all about, being what you are without any reflection or comparison .. Beyond duality in other words .

For masters / gurus / non duality types they still retain their own sense of self identity even when they suggest that no-one is here .

Those that say Self is real and the body is illusory are knee deep in their own intellectual wranglings that are rife in self identification/s .

In regards to what should be integrated and what should be renounced in regards to self aspects, there is no one right answer .

Everyone is entertaining a process of self knowing / evaluation and one entertains a belief in that .

When things fall short or seems to be incorrect, one then perceives differently, that is why when an individual realizes what they are they can relate to the mind-body as illusory when prior to that they only consciously was aware of the self that was of the flesh .

My point in making in these instances is that one is both the weeds and the roses, the roots and the tree tops ..

There is something in me that doesn't sit too well with renouncing what we are from another aspect / facet of that which we are .



x daz x

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by God-Like

It's a funny old game for sure . Perhaps when your fingers are are chopped off or you lose your sight, then one doesn't realize until then how much one was attached to them .

One's children, one's roof over their head, their job, partners, parents etc, etc ..

I think it would be nice to float around without a care in the world and not be attached to anything, not even attached to one's own life experience of this world ... One would not care about self preservation or how they looked, or what other's thought of them ..

I suppose in this respect true detachment would be like that ..



x daz x

Relationships are attachments of sorts and I wouldn't give them up for anything.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by BlueSky

Relationships are attachments of sorts and I wouldn't give them up for anything.

Yes, absolutely relationships are attachments of a sort, and masters and teachers of detachment have formed their own relationships with their families and with God and with their guru's and their teachings .

I wouldn't say many supposed masters would renounce and detach themselves from their own beliefs / truths / teachings ..

I would say that if questioned / challenged upon them many would defend them to some degree .


It truly is a funny old game .


x daz x

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Yes, absolutely relationships are attachments of a sort, and masters and teachers of detachment have formed their own relationships with their families and with God and with their guru's and their teachings .

I wouldn't say many supposed masters would renounce and detach themselves from their own beliefs / truths / teachings ..

I would say that if questioned / challenged upon them many would defend them to some degree .


It truly is a funny old game .


x daz x

Yes I believe it's mostly a mind game. If you think you are non attached to something, it's only because you are thinking it. If you weren't thinking it, you would just be being.
That's my experience anyways

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Fleeing the scene or renouncing, attending the roses and not the weeds, the tree tops and not the roots are all fragmented actions / expressions but one cannot help what one does .

What I would say presents itself to any individual can be resolved or not, integrated or not depending on where an individual is at within themselves . It can be seen to be easier to give to charity when you give a little of what interest you have made on your wealth than it is to give away your last dollar .

Then again, if you love to give and find it comes natural to you, you won't won't it hard to give away your last dollar .

It is also fine to keep your wealth and not give it away in any shape or form, it depends on what presents itself to you and what you do and how you feel about what you do .

Hey there Daz and thanks for your response.
Yes that last is what happens when one has severe 1st chakra issues...for them, they really do perceive they need to hoard their wealth, because they are coming from an ingrained, unhealed place of lack that no mountain of gold can assuage. But generosity is very relevant, isn't it? Generosity of spirit toward self and others is certainly key to any growth or learning...without room to move and stretch and change, how can we grow in spirit? At some point, we must remove the obstacles of fear and miserliness, so that we can move forward. And at some point, I believe we all will do. Providing support and love to one another is a huge aid to many in helping them overcome these root chakra issues. That's why our social values and the way in which we structure our societies is so key for both good and for ill, depending on how we choose.

In regards to your post (33) and not renouncing and self healing, well for some they are not consciously aware of aspects that need healing, for myself several lifetimes past until I was ready to face my demons . For peeps that are not aware of their demons they are not strictly renouncing those aspects on one level because they are not consciously aware of them .. although on another level they have banished them from their immediate awareness .

It can get complicated because there are many levels and aspects to self and what you are .

I completely agree with all this...it is hard work, and you have to be willing to face the sordid and hard truth about your soul and what you've carried over to this point. That's why they say ignorance is bliss. But they also say you can't go home again (to the place of dumb ignorance)...all you can do is rediscover your innocence with full awareness of what is.

In regards to my self healing work it's mainly about connection / refining / purification and self d.n.a maintenance, bringing in the light and expanding .. I am not as much as I can tell about self healing aspects that surfaced like before, It just takes a lot of time and dedication as you know .

You have done an awful lot of work Dazzer, as have I. It's always nice to share these things and support one another on the journey everyone has to walk. I find that over the years, the centrality of both authentic love and reconciliation (which is why so many speak of forgiveness, a necessary but not sufficient step toward reconciliation) are the keys to pretty much everything. And the thing is, reconciliation cannot be done just by any one person, making it more challenging than even sincerely generating an authentic love for all, all by your lonesome. Reconciliation always involves two or more to reconcile with one another, here in our day-to-day world. Experiencing and sharing authentic love and its key distillate for healing, transformational reconciliation, are why we came here to this place. Finding and centering ourselves through this experiencing and this sharing.

So often, reconciliation can't happen because one or both/all are not mutually open to ownership, true contrition and turning away from the misalignment (repentance) and toward authentic love and right-alignment. A mutuality of authentic love is foundational, simple for others as people and deserving of honour and dignity and respect. Without authentic love and without reconciliation, there is no transformational growth beyond the more rudimentary levels. Forgiveness is then a one-sided act of love and generosity, at best, but not a true and mutual transformation in spirit, where there is a mutuality of authentic love, of forgiveness, of contrition and repentence. Even authentic love for all is transformational in this place only the sharing of it, the giving and the receiving of it. If authentic love for all doesn't spur us toward sincere, heartfelt, freely offered reconciliation (and not just the standalone acts of kindness), well then...we're just not quite there yet in this lifetime, it seems. Because it absolutely does, and will.

Sometimes, there is no closure because it was an act of war or violence or other aggressive or predatory wrongdoing, and the other folks are long gone and/or remain dangerous. Here folks must do the best they can with the one-sided love and forgiveness which is on hand for them. Sometimes we are out of touch for years and may literally have no way to contact the person to say hello or make amends, etc. Though that's really much less the case these days than in times past, but still.

But in normal relationship with others, there is typically so much more we can do. In the normal working arena of our lives, most of us are blessed to have many opportunities to reconcile and make amends...perhaps on countless occasions. So when we live in this place, a constant turning away by choice, it's an opportunity for growth and reflection, IMO.

It's not for all to spend a huge chunk of their lives doing this self work, it's not mean't for all .. when a peep realizes the multi faceted self and in a multidimensional way integrating them altogether and then expanding for use of a better word then yet again, depending on where one is at within themselves depends on whether it's achievable or not in this lifetime .. for those on a similar pathway know they have to keep going regardless .

x daz x

Yes I agree it's not meant for all because they have to choose it and want it and be ready, be strong enough to handle the onslaught (as at times it may feel this way). At some point, they too will be ready. It's all a matter of where they are on the journey, just as you say.

Michael showed me a scatterplot of earth souls on their journey a little while back. The vast majority are more balled up between the starting point and the halfway point. They are not likely to make any huge and transformative breakthroughs in this one lifetime, though their work is still important and necessary and like everyone they can choose to live and be and do with authentic love or without it, as best they can.

It's just not time yet for many...but then again, some are strong enough to pick up their pace if they so desire. IF they choose it and want it and seek it and love "with all their hearts and all their souls and all their might".

That's when the journey really begins to shift gears, so to speak. Integration on a whole new level with each step, but then again, your steps are now much larger.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Nature Grows

Thank you 7luminaries.

Very welcome, NG

Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hey there Greenslade,

What comes to mind is;

I feel Spirit's presence just the same through the energy exchanged and the life that pulses through me and others. It is felt through out my whole being at present and in life that unfolds before me.

So, it is here and there. Meaning also had "visits" from those loved ones who have passed from this physical state. Sensed through this physical being I am at present.
For what reason? Feel the connections never break, just transform. One stage of being into another. Those passed are done being physical, but some still come by to remind me the connection is always there.

So it does not resonate with me that Spirit is just "up there" or this physical being is somehow not of it.

Not meaning to go off topic here and feel it is right in line with topic. For each life intertwines with another and seems to Intergrated in a way.

Which leads the thoughts to drift that to renounce this physical experience somehow makes this life kind of null and void in a way. Which it is not. After this never again will it be experienced. Experienced through the senses, as well as, through the intuition. so, yes might as well make the best of it.

May not be back to live this again and enjoy a nice glass of wine or malt or see the power and beauty of this Earth. If so, go on as before being here. But why rush it?

Don't really know what "we" are learning, to be honest. I just feel gratitude for this life and the chance to be this Human-Being.

Thank you

Hey there Moonglow

I spent time as a practicing medium and I still do a little bit here and there, but if it taught me one thing it's that our Loved Ones in Spirit are watching over us even though we don't realise it. The physical experience has its 'uses' and meanings in Spirit - apparently we're here to learn the lessons after all so if it's of no benefit? So if we're renouncing, what exactly are we renouncing?

To be honest I find discussions like these don't go deep enough, if the question is simply renounce or integrate' what are we renouncing/integrating and what are he reasons? It's not which one is more holy or better, it's the reasons we're doing it that's the important part. So if you're tying to make this Life null and void, what does that tell you about yourself?

There's a saying in this part of the world - "You're a long time dead." What that means is that it's wise to make the most of the time you have when you have it, and granted we don't die but the sentiment is the same- make the most of this Life before you move on.

There is Spirituality in being non-Spiritual.