Is Jesus Christ?

Originally Posted by DASA

but how did you come to the conclusion that Jesus sounds like a wordly person? He sounds anything but wordly to me. I don't think you could really classify his suffering as karmic baggage? Also are not both Jesus and Christ commonly used as names of the same person? I'm a bit lost on this one ...

Jesus is said to have frequented taverns, this is fairly worldly. He had a religion, which he walked away from which involved a degree of conflict even, this is also worldy.
You understand karma, ie for every action, there is a reaction. If Jesus is in a body, in this world, then he is not exempt from the law of karma. What we put out, comes back to us. It would appear that jesus may have been settling karmic accounts of whatever kind, as we all do.
We could go farther and ask whether Jesus was going through some sort of purification in the bigger context. Hanging out with the powerful energy that he did, (Christ? and God?) would purge karmic accounts no doubt.
As for Jesus and Christ being two separate entities,.....that is what we are debating I guess.
Jesus was not Christian, Christianity followed. Jesus taught a universal spirituality. I should think that jesus would be like God, and not align with any specific religion as such.
I am a bit wary of speaking about other peoples religion, but, I have been expected to accept certain religious teachings from birth, so I will question them.
Peace Al*

Hello Al,

Please don't be offended by my following questions. I'm not a Christian so have no vested interest in the nature of Jesus but would like to ask them, as I find debate often brings up very intesting comments from all sides :

Originally Posted by AL

Jesus frequented taverns,this is fairly worldly.

1) Neither of us can claim to know for sure what Jesus did, we can only rely on secondary sources. Are you referring to a particular time in which Jesus visited a tavern?

2) If he visited with a few of his mates with the intention to 'enjoy' himself by getting drunk and meeting some girls, then yes that would be pretty wordly, but what if he visited a tavern with pure intentions, not to drink any alcohol, but to speak to people about God? Does that still make him worldy in your opinion? I've never come across a story of Jesus acting in a drunken way?

3) What if in his youth he wasn't 100% pure, but then later became this way. Is it not possible to have a worldy youth, and then after reforming oneself have an unworldy middle-age? Or is this your actual argument?

Originally Posted by AL

He had a religion,which he walked away from which involved a degree of conflict even,this is also worldy.

4) Virtually everyone is born with some kind of religion, how is that wordly? If Jesus became upset at the hypocrisy going on in his local religion because he could see that it was displeasing God then how is that worldy? - To care so much about God's pleasure rather than our own that we'd cause some disturbance to try and rectify the situation sounds pretty unworldy to me?

Originally Posted by AL

You understand karma,ie for every action,there is a reaction.If Jesus is in a body,in this world,then he is not exempt from the law of karma.

From what I've read karma (action) as described in the Vedas is a very complicated matter. Not all action is actually classified as karma, there are also actions which are known as 'akarma' in that actually they produce no karma at all. The fact that Jesus had a body and acted with it does not necessarily mean that he was also under the influence of karma. (see below quotation)

BG 4.18: One who sees inaction in action, and action in inaction, is intelligent among men, and he is in the transcendental position, although engaged in all sorts of activities.

BG 4.19: One is understood to be in full knowledge whose every endeavor is devoid of desire for sense gratification. He is said by sages to be a worker for whom the reactions of work have been burned up by the fire of perfect knowledge.

BG 4.20: Abandoning all attachment to the results of his activities, ever satisfied and independent, he performs no fruitive action, although engaged in all kinds of undertakings.

Originally Posted by AL

It would appear that jesus may have been settling karmic accounts of whatever kind,as we all do,all the time..

5) I'm not saying that's not a possibility, but also another possibilty could be that God gave him the extra suffering just to glorify his character and that it's nothing to do with karma. Often we don't see the true depth of brightness in a light untill it is surrounded by darkness. Do you accept this side as another theoretical possibility?

I agree that Jesus seemed to be giving a very universal message, but really we don't know so much about him because of a lack of records and the time involved since he physically left the planet. All that's left in essence is the teachings... If they work then all good, if not then we are left with vague uncertainty?

Hope that's not too many questions !!

Gouranga

Das

[quote=AL]
Jesus was not Christian,Christianity followed.Jesus taught a universal spirituality.I should think that jesus would be like God,and not align with any specific religion as such.


Hello you two,

I have found you thread interesting.

I was struck my the above quotation from Al.
I believe that Jesus was a much gifted human bloke. I believe he was gifted with a spiritual awareness that allowed him knowledge of the truth (oneness / as above as below). That truth is what he imparted. When he was crucified, we are told in the bible, he, three days later (3) ascended. Mary Magdalene, his beloved one, was witness to this. It was necessary for mary to witness this so that she could preach the message of ascension if following the words of Jesus.

I believe Jesus, on passing, ascended to such a divine level that his soul was worthy of the 'Christ' label. As you say, Al, 'Christianity followed'

However, Christianity over the years has changed - leaving today's model!

Like you say, Christ is holy and linked with the true divine - independent of the modern notion of 'religion'. As the old cliche so rightly puts it: 'We are all one in God.'

Love and Light Starlite x

Al, I find what you are saying a little perplexing. Jesus never walked away from Judaism, according to the texts, he came to fulfill the law. He lived and died a Jew. He didn't stop being Jewish or even actually set about a new religion; that was done by others after his death. Their great teacher died, they waited, nothing happened, they felt a duty to the followers so the disciples did what they could to give comfort and structure. They recounted the ritual of sharing bread and wine with Jesus on that last night and slowly that became a tradition and a religion.

He belonged to a religion but your assumption here is, I am guessing, that somehow that makes the person limited in their spirituality or outlook in life thereby creating some kind of karma. I kind of get frustrated with the notion that somehow religion and spirituality are separate and therefore religion is lacking spirituality. Nothing could be further from the truth, there is a great deal of spiritual richness to be found in religion and religious rituals. I also gather your assumption is that all religions are imperfect therefore to belong to one means you are imperfect. Since when have atheists been perfect? Simply not belonging to a religion does not make you aligned to God. Buddha was a Hindu at one stage before developing his ideas now known as Buddhism. He was a person who had religious, spiritual and physical experiences, yet was karma free. I think Jesus was the same, he lived in the world but was not of it, because he was free of karma.

I find the concept of a 'universal' ideal, spirituality or laws interesting because it seems to me there are about as many concepts of what it means as there are about what God is. If you think about it, every religion and denomination is an attempt to identify and experience 'universal spirituality'. They don't entirely get it right but they don't entirely get it wrong either.

Finally, the idea that Jesus and Christ are different almost to the point of being different entities is not right. It is said within various Christian traditions, that Jesus was Divine in and through his humanity. In other words to try and separate our physical from our spiritual or our religious aspects from spirituality is missing the point. God is here, now, all of it, us, earth, universe and more, so God is our humanity, our worldly experiencess. Its like when someone talks about dying and going to heaven and how we shouldn't speak to spirits because they have to be demons because when people die they go to heaven. The afterlife and places like heaven are seen as being far away places with clear parameters therefore, it has be something else if it appears to us. They don't consider the reason you may be able to speak with spirits is because heaven and the afterlife, inhabit the same space we live in just perhaps at a 'higher frequency' or other way of being.

It's turning into an interesting thread. I am grateful for the chance to voice some of the ideas that keep swirling in my head.

Peace and love folks,
Perhaps that is why I separate Religion and spirituality, so that people like yourselves say something. I dont mind being wrong, or corrected.
For many, the question may never arise in the first place, so, I am glad to be able to bring subjects in need of airing to the table and stir others to give their point of view. That way,I learn.
I am not against religion. What I experience in meditation does not resonate with what we generaly call religion. So I will question it, but only to help others.
I would like to see souls using their respective spiritual paths to raise their consciousness, then the world will change. I have never said that people should not follow their religion.
So, Jesus was not in conflict with the Jews, or at least, to the degree that has been portrayed. I can go with that. Who was he in conflict with then?
And yes, God is there, right now, amazing isnt it, to what degree do we REALISE this? I would like to see religion bringing God closer, rather than causing fear in people with regards to having a relationship with this being. I think all/ most prophets aimed to do this, as you are sugesting, though some appear more Goddy than others.
I may respond more to these posts, I never have enough time as I use my local library for the net, thats my exuse anyway.
My last post seems to have disapeared or not made it.Hmm.
Al*