Obsessions with returning deities.

Originally Posted by tainamom

From my experience: Once I reached Atman consciousness, I realized that I am DEFINITELY NOT the CREATOR. I am created/born from the Creator.

1- Yes we are all equal, but in that it means that we are equally loved by the Creator.

2- I am not capable of achieving liberation. It is a gift that will be given to us when we are ready for it. I cannot chase it. I must request for help to accept it.

3- I don't understand the term Moksha. Can't comment on it. We are divine or should I say spirit. That's my understanding.

So although that is what you believe/know, my experience, for now, says the above and I can't challenge the real Truth as given by Source.

By definition, you have not 'met' Atman consciousness. It is not something outside of you to be witnessed, and that is not what is realized in ultimate consciousness what so ever.

I would never wish to disturb your belief in god or Jesus, but consider that maybe it is true that you need to work in this way, but that maybe others are capable even while you are not, and that maybe others can see deeper with god than you at this particular time.

This is something you admit with Jesus, of course, and I am aware he according to you and yours, is the only one.

If you ever bother to take the time to listen to some Vedic spirituality, I would like to suggest the book Sadhana: The Realisation of life - By Rabindranath Tagore.

I do know that the belief in an apocalypse is a dark and cruel belief, it at least appears that way. A religion honed in the attraction to the end of the world, does not sound to me like a path toward universal love.

Did you ever consider that this 'apocalypse' is not about the end of the world outside, but the end of the world inside?

[peteyzen]

love what your saying tainamom, and agree. i have met 2 avatars in this life so can attest to the reality of the divine in human form

[tainamom]

Friend,

Yes. Atman consciousness can be reached and I can tell you who can help you experience this.

It appears that you are jumping to many conclusions about my experiences. Books don't come close to the Truth once you experience it from a different consciousness level.

We will probably never know the real true nature of God.

Eventually, this will all end. When? I don't know. After all, existence was not meant to be forever.

Be well.

Originally Posted by Friend

By definition, you have not 'met' Atman consciousness. It is not something outside of you to be witnessed, and that is not what is realized in ultimate consciousness what so ever.

I would never wish to disturb your belief in god or Jesus, but consider that maybe it is true that you need to work in this way, but that maybe others are capable even while you are not, and that maybe others can see deeper with god than you at this particular time.

This is something you admit with Jesus, of course, and I am aware he according to you and yours, is the only one.

If you ever bother to take the time to listen to some Vedic spirituality, I would like to suggest the book Sadhana: The Realisation of life - By Rabindranath Tagore.

I do know that the belief in an apocalypse is a dark and cruel belief, it at least appears that way. A religion honed in the attraction to the end of the world, does not sound to me like a path toward universal love.

Did you ever consider that this 'apocalypse' is not about the end of the world outside, but the end of the world inside?

[Vinayaka]

Originally Posted by tainamom

The apocolypse according to my catholic upbringing would be the same as the return of Vishnu/Krishna/Kalki. Read both stories. They're somewhat similar.

Yes they are somewhat similar, but the Kalki avatar is unique to only one branch of Hinduism, certainly not to all of Hinduism. For others those stories are either irrelevant, or metaphorical. But using an Abrahamic paradigm to start out with, the Kalki idea does make sense. Otherwise no.

As for claims of reaching certain levels of consciousness, I have doubts about any self-proclaimed achievements. Along with a deeper spiritual sense comes great humility, sop it would be unusual for any bonafide Hindu teacher to speak of his own personality, as he's lost most, if not all of it.

But these are just doubts, and I could of course be very wrong. Generally with this comment comes a defensive response, which only reinforces the case.

[Vinayaka]

Originally Posted by tainamom

3- I don't understand the term Moksha. Can't comment on it. We are divine or should I say spirit. That's my understanding.

Moksha is simply release from the reincarnation cycle. It comes as a result of nirvikalpa samadhi.

I 2nd what Vinayaka is saying.

Also Tainamon, you seem to be making the assumption that we have not attained 'atman consciousness' ourselves, for all you know we have. Though I assume you have decided that your own logic will validate your own believe, with a fallacy thought such as: "I have experienced it, therefore I know if someone else has or not, if they had, they would agree with me." -I am not saying we have, of course if we were not benefiting your spirituality there would be no reason to think we had, and it would of course be totally irrelevant.

I wont argue with this, but want to make you aware of the assumption you have made and how it betrays a perceptual fallacy, both of what 'god' is, what 'atman' is, and what consciousness is. According to those of us who's primarily spiritual path is a direct connection, to this state of consciousness.

What anyone currently has is Atman consciousness, this is easy to recognize, it is what you call the spirit. To realize Atman, is to realize a fairly specific thing, that Brahman is your own true self.

When Jesus said 'I am God', it can easily be seen as him realizing Brahman. Or rather, Jesus attained liberation - which is very commonly defined as realizing that you are Brahman. Atman is identical to Brahman, in the famous and well known phrasing. and this goes along side much more impressive achievements such as having full love for all beings, for realizing that god is allness - and that the 'love of god' is your love for all beings - as if your love for them, is his love for you being allowed into your heart. understanding there is no true evil, for evil itself is not true.

This is hugely contrary the entire paradigm which leads up to the 'rapture' or the Apocalypse where good defeats evil. These two concepts do not really fit to each other so well. However, I can see this story and idea in a way that represents and internal battle we seem to have and how realizing what Jesus realized from a Hindu perspective - will extinguish all evil from your heart and leave you in a heavenly state of being, where the world as it is - is heaven itself.

Strangely, I would disagree with you where I would agree with Jesus. He may very well have been a liberated human being and then taught to those around him who had entirely lost the knowledge which allows such a thing to be. I am told you can find a large number of references to such a meaning to Jesus in the bible itself, where he is telling the Jews that they have been lied to about the spirituality (which for some reason many christians still follow as their religion), and that he knows the way and the truth.

Anyway, this could last forever!

I think I've made my point.

[tainamom]

Originally Posted by Vinayaka

As for claims of reaching certain levels of consciousness, I have doubts about any self-proclaimed achievements. Along with a deeper spiritual sense comes great humility, sop it would be unusual for any bonafide Hindu teacher to speak of his own personality, as he's lost most, if not all of it.

But these are just doubts, and I could of course be very wrong. Generally with this comment comes a defensive response, which only reinforces the case.

any blessings given are not or ever from my own doing. it's not even an achievement, in all honesty. it is my own mistake for assuming that people do not like to hear the word blessing, instead of the word achievement. forgive me for boasting. i should have been more humble in explaining the situation.

there is a teacher that i know who is very good and has a wonderful program to lead a more heart centered way of life. it is a yoga in one lifetime program, which includes reaching what is called True Self Consciousness (also known as Atman Consciousness). it is such a beautiful program and it is not even a secret where you must climb the himalayas or go deep into the mountains for years. even without the program, everyone will start to remember more and more the true purpose of life and of the Real Love and Care Source has for all of us. i honestly feel it is a great blessing to have such beautiful workshops that can assist us all in spiritual growth to reach Yoga and beyond.

No, I have not been blessed with Yoga or Moksha (now that I understand it a bit more in layman's terms).

In the end, it doesn't really matter where we are in our spiritual growth as long as it's in the correct direction with the focus on the one True Creator.

just my honest opinion.

[tainamom]

I do not make assumptions on what you did or did not experience as I have absolutely no idea. I'm just saying that in my experience, this is what I know to be true.

Would Krishna need liberation?

edit: i don't think disagreeing will last forever. we'll get tired of it and don't want to be bothered with it anymore. one day. can't wait for that day. it will be beautiful to be fully free of it.

Originally Posted by Friend

I 2nd what Vinayaka is saying.

Also Tainamon, you seem to be making the assumption that we have not attained 'atman consciousness' ourselves, for all you know we have. Though I assume you have decided that your own logic will validate your own believe, with a fallacy thought such as: "I have experienced it, therefore I know if someone else has or not, if they had, they would agree with me." -I am not saying we have, of course if we were not benefiting your spirituality there would be no reason to think we had, and it would of course be totally irrelevant.

I wont argue with this, but want to make you aware of the assumption you have made and how it betrays a perceptual fallacy, both of what 'god' is, what 'atman' is, and what consciousness is. According to those of us who's primarily spiritual path is a direct connection, to this state of consciousness.

What anyone currently has is Atman consciousness, this is easy to recognize, it is what you call the spirit. To realize Atman, is to realize a fairly specific thing, that Brahman is your own true self.

When Jesus said 'I am God', it can easily be seen as him realizing Brahman. Or rather, Jesus attained liberation - which is very commonly defined as realizing that you are Brahman. Atman is identical to Brahman, in the famous and well known phrasing. and this goes along side much more impressive achievements such as having full love for all beings, for realizing that god is allness - and that the 'love of god' is your love for all beings - as if your love for them, is his love for you being allowed into your heart. understanding there is no true evil, for evil itself is not true.

This is hugely contrary the entire paradigm which leads up to the 'rapture' or the Apocalypse where good defeats evil. These two concepts do not really fit to each other so well. However, I can see this story and idea in a way that represents and internal battle we seem to have and how realizing what Jesus realized from a Hindu perspective - will extinguish all evil from your heart and leave you in a heavenly state of being, where the world as it is - is heaven itself.

Strangely, I would disagree with you where I would agree with Jesus. He may very well have been a liberated human being and then taught to those around him who had entirely lost the knowledge which allows such a thing to be. I am told you can find a large number of references to such a meaning to Jesus in the bible itself, where he is telling the Jews that they have been lied to about the spirituality (which for some reason many christians still follow as their religion), and that he knows the way and the truth.

Anyway, this could last forever!

I think I've made my point.

[Vinayaka]

I'm just expressing an orthodox and traditional Hindu viewpoint from my sampradaya (established philosophical school/group within Hinduism) ... nothing much else. But there are communication elements that hinder discussion between orthodoxy and 'new age'. That's why you don't see a lot of interaction between the two paradigms. Although there are some things in common, the differences often outweigh them. Difficult to find common ground some days.

[tainamom]

Originally Posted by Vinayaka

I'm just expressing an orthodox and traditional Hindu viewpoint from my sampradaya (established philosophical school/group within Hinduism) ... nothing much else. But there are communication elements that hinder discussion between orthodoxy and 'new age'. That's why you don't see a lot of interaction between the two paradigms. Although there are some things in common, the differences often outweigh them. Difficult to find common ground some days.

thank you for sharing. i only read the gita. it's a really good book that i believe to be true. i'm sure i was hindu once. just not this time around.