Insight meditation and the Satipatthana sutta

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Thank you for sharing the information BT. It seems to me with regard to the approaches lets say and the abundance of techniques or ways of coming at vipassana or mindfulness, that any spoke on the wheel will lead to the hub if you follow it closely, ardently, honestly and diligently enough ? I think I heard Joseph Goldstein say that to be aware of the body for example and to try to be aware of the thoughts or to aware of something else at the same time is not really productive, i actually think he was referring to the sattipathana sutta and the way in which anyone can be prone to try to put an instruction manual inside their intellectual minds if you will. Not only is it not productive i suppose but actually not do-able in a sense.

Basically, the teacher has to explain why they instruct the meditation in the specific way they do so the student understands what they do and why they do it. Then the student understands and has their own purpose. Otherwise it's just obedience.

I've been googling the word Vipassana and keep coming up with the Goenka stuff. I was trying to get some views on Vipassana in a more contemplative light, so taking the theme of impermanence and dropping it like a stone into a pond and following the realisations as they come if they come. For this to happen effectively it is advised that you have a degree of Samatha or Samadhi as you say. That the less agitated the mind is the clearer or more likely perhaps the realisations will be ? Anyway this approach to insight may not concur at all with lots of teachings and teachers who teach the dharma just to say.

Anyway the Goenka thing and particularly the 10 day retreat pathway had my interest tweaked a bit even to the point of considering doing a 10 day retreat. And then another side of me kicked in and I thought this is surely extreme ? I saw you refer in another post to training the mind like a muscle and in this respect surely asking a lay person to do 10 hours meditation for 10 days is like asking someone who walks in the park everyday to undertake a marathon ? Does the analogy hold up in this regard ? And have you any experience of this approach ? I'm almost sure Gem does so perhaps he will chip in ? I've been on a few retreats not a vast amount and I think it was a maximum of about 4-5hours meditation which seemed alot at the time. Even if a person was meditating 2-4 hours a day at home wouldn't 10 hours a day seem a bit of a push ? Thanks. Joe.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Gem

Basically, the teacher has to explain why they instruct the meditation in the specific way they do so the student understands what they do and why they do it. Then the student understands and has their own purpose. Otherwise it's just obedience.

If you were taught martial arts, and the instructor taught you to cultivate chi energy, samadhi practice or undertake various stability poses, would you keep insisting on your own individuality at all costs, and thinking that because you have taken a few instructions you are now accomplished and are not "obedient"?

You have this consistent fear of guidance, and teacher-aversion, that reveals some strong lingering insecurity. In all Buddhist centers that I've seen, the meditation instructions are clear and there is really no question or mystery about it. So too is the Buddha's and teachers' encouragement to know for yourself - is the Eight fold Path anything else than an individual path that cannot be walked by anyone but the walker? Is there any great mystery to the practice of Buddhism? I think that you often introduce suspicion and doubt, where there is no real relevance, except in your own psychology perhaps?

BT

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

You're very welcome Joe Mc.



I do believe that is possible, yes.



I would concur with Goldstein, which is why I would generally (as a village idiot) advise starting just with general breath meditation and let things flow from there. It is like a plant, if you give it water daily, it is organically growing, consuming/converting C20 and the like, sunshine, i.e. it is working even though the technique "appears" simple. As the seed is watered, other things come into play, branches shoot out, the plant is stronger and now capable of more than before. e.g. "vipassana" comes into play through observation/awareness

I also concur with your observation that it is like putting an instruction manual in the way.

Having said all that, I will never say never. And I am also not familiar enough (intimately) with all other traditions to say whether or not that style is beneficial

The ones I comment on are ones I am more intimately aware of i.e. I have practical experience of or have studied in more detail.

Despite that caveat, I agree with you - I would not personally advise doing too much at the beginning nor would I advise putting the entire instruction manual in mind with the risk that it adds to the thinking mind.

Finally, I can share what works/worked for me very well:

1. When reading books or teachings of Dharma, listen sincerely and openly but don't "try" to remember it all. Let it come and go and absorb what is freely there.
2. Do not be too ardent in results, the practice is sufficient. As you do the practices, have faith that your effort when sincere is strong. It is like the plant I mentioned above, it is not always clear when something is happening, but if you are practicing, things are happening.
3. A Thai Forest monk once advised one of the nuns at the monastery "don't try to do anything". It is easier said than done, but what I learnt and served me well was regardless of the quality of your sitting (confused mind, agitated, lost, happy, excellent, blissful, good, bad) - it doesn't matter - just keep up the practice



Samatha helps give you some space to see what is happening, that's all. Usually it is too busy and our habitual mind is too strong, not an easy thing to change especially at the beginning. Samatha is also a peaceful mind - you probably have this many times in the day. Yet Buddhist samatha that enables strong vipassana probably requires formal practices. It's like a martial arts practitioner, one might have some natural talent, can follow some basic instructions, but to become a Master of the field, some discipline and strong cultivation is probably important.
Later, as you cultivate, even if there are strong emotions, samatha grounds you in peace of mind. There is also the case where the dhammas such as thinking subside. There are many layers to this onion.



If you refer to dropping the inquiry of impermanence like a gentle wave into the pond, and cultivating samadhi, this is completely in line with Buddhist practice, in my opinion. Zen practice for example, is very much this approach. Thai Forest Buddhism is also not far off I suspect. Buddhism as a religion has different contexts/systems but as long as the essence (of realization) is the same, it doesn't matter how a school/teacher uses methods to guide their students up the mountain. The only thing that matters is genuine realization (which does not differ across all genuine Buddhist traditions and is synchronized with the original revelations of Gautama - in result)



When I became first interested in Buddhism (too long ago now ) I also googled and found Goenka style retreats. I never did end up going on one but I went to a Buddhist meditation retreat where we sat for many hours. I remember I wanted to run away by Day 2 but just managed to finish the 7.

To your question, I have, since then, been on quite a few retreats. I have spent months at monasteries practicing for over 12 hours a day for months. BUT it was not like this to start with, and I was also assisted by an extraordinary teacher. Basically I am as skeptical as they come so was always wary of teachers as well, unless I found them to have genuine substance. Since then I've seen things that are not easy to believe, but these things are unimportant because each person has their own path, I believe.

So to answer your question, yes I have familiarity with retreats. No, I have no experience in the Goenka style. I do believe the tradition/teacher is important so I would recommend that you first of all evaluate which tradition/teacher you feel some affinity/synchronization with first.

After that you can choose your preferred meditation style and choice of retreats - retreats are appreciated in that it can give you a sufficient block of time and space (sort of like a boot camp )

No, I don't believe that you need to start with 10/10. Choose your tradition first.

Be well, dear Joe Mc.

BT

Thank you for your detailed and helpful reply. I've just remembered on some of my early encounters with meditation that the focusing on the abdomen came up as in the Mahasi Sayadaw method and I very fascinated by it, like a really strong affinity to it straight away. I'd come across some other methods by then Zen and Tibetan Buddhism etc. but it did jump out at me. It was along way back now. lol. Anyways later on I was having ear acupuncture in a treatment centre one day and there was a warmth in the air and perhaps a misty rain, im a great man for the settings lol and entered a state of bliss momentarily and my consciousness was either in Rangoon or Kandy, it was very beautiful indeed. Not why that would or should have happened. It was quite fleeting in a sense. Of the great boys and girls here on Sf will straight away take me to the past lives only joking boys and girls but I dont slip down that road easily i have to say. It seems to me in the very brief reading ive been doing the past few days that Mahasi Sayadaw is a jewel of beautiful learning, knowledge and example of Buddhist meditation. I might try a little of his meditation ..lol ..the labelling etc. So there is plenty for me to read about here on this thread and elsewhere as it seems that there are followers, so to speak , of his method here. Sorry if this post sounds a bit tangential and abstract but just to say thanks for your time and interest and I hope you are keeping well. :)

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by Gem

Basically, the teacher has to explain why they instruct the meditation in the specific way they do so the student understands what they do and why they do it. Then the student understands and has their own purpose. Otherwise it's just obedience.

Thanks Gem I understand.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

From what I read and heard Goenka has a solid base for a certain style of Vipassana.
There are many enthousiasts and many opposers.

My reason for not taking the Goenka retreat back in the day, but going to a Mahasi Sayadaw style, was that
In Goenka it's all sitting. No walking meditation.
Also, from what I hear Goenka discourages trying other styles to find a good fit.
So it tend's to be a tad dogmatic. But so do many of the others.
Just keep your discernment at the ready.

As a technique, once base concentration is established one is guided to
"sweep" with his or her's attention through the body, noticing the sensations I believe continuesly as that is the Technique.

As for the marathon analogy.
When I did my 15 day retreat we meditated non-stop all day. alternating walking and sitting in equal parts. increasing from 10 minutes in the beginning up to an hour each.
The last 72 hours were non stop and due to increased concentration. Amazingly doable..
I have also never hear of anyone dying from sitting for 10 hours on a Goenka retreat so you should do fine either way..

With Love
Eelco

EDIT:
Found this blogpost that may be helpfullhttps://www.christophertitmussblog.o...firm-proposals

Thanks

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Thank you for your detailed and helpful reply. I've just remembered on some of my early encounters with meditation that the focusing on the abdomen came up as in the Mahasi Sayadaw method and I very fascinated by it, like a really strong affinity to it straight away. I'd come across some other methods by then Zen and Tibetan Buddhism etc. but it did jump out at me. It was along way back now. lol. Anyways later on I was having ear acupuncture in a treatment centre one day and there was a warmth in the air and perhaps a misty rain, im a great man for the settings lol and entered a state of bliss momentarily and my consciousness was either in Rangoon or Kandy, it was very beautiful indeed. Not why that would or should have happened. It was quite fleeting in a sense. Of the great boys and girls here on Sf will straight away take me to the past lives only joking boys and girls but I dont slip down that road easily i have to say. It seems to me in the very brief reading ive been doing the past few days that Mahasi Sayadaw is a jewel of beautiful learning, knowledge and example of Buddhist meditation. I might try a little of his meditation ..lol ..the labelling etc. So there is plenty for me to read about here on this thread and elsewhere as it seems that there are followers, so to speak , of his method here. Sorry if this post sounds a bit tangential and abstract but just to say thanks for your time and interest and I hope you are keeping well. :)

Quite a common experience I would guess, for spiritual seekers. How else could we be so interested despite the skeptical minds hope you're doing well too. Good travels Joe.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

Quite a common experience I would guess, for spiritual seekers. How else could we be so interested despite the skeptical minds hope you're doing well too. Good travels Joe.

Yes. I mean the methodology around various meditation techniques seems to drift into a bogus debate of which is best, so it becomes a spiritual materialism perhaps. I'm going to change my horse Perhaps the main thing is to chip away and at least stay in touch with some kind of deepening and spiritual acknowledgement of our predicament here as human beings. Looking back at my enthusiasm when I cleaned the windows of a dharma centre and saw the teacher as a living buddha perhaps said more about my (naivety) nativity as a simple Irish working class kid who was destined to see something in dharma terms, despite not being able to hold a debate with you Blame it on the Catholicism perhaps. Thanks for opportunity to ramble some more. Best regards Joe.

[Gem]

I just came back because the satipatthana is the 'practice manual' of Buddhism (well, mindfulness at least), and I don't think there's a more relevant topic.

It is relevant because to speak of the practice can inspire us to practice, and to discuss can be revealing as to how our practice can be refined.

I think henceforth, should this thread continue at all, refraining from asides would be better, and personal remarks which are less that kind should not be made at all. It is the Buddhist section, so it's perfectly reasonable to suggest 'right speech'.

This can't be a place were people join the thread and might be insulted, derided, accused and/or gossiped about. Surely the reasons for that are obvious and need not be elaborated on. I am concerned that any person might be subjected to such things.

I start a thread for mutual benefit, so I would like to make it clear that my motive is not only my own, but inspired by my fundamental wish for everyone's happiness. That's the spirit of the thing, right?

Always with metta.

I agree on the relevance of the topic.
That said, Not much is said in these 11 pages about the nature of, or practice of insight meditation or the satipatthana sutta.

So I am unsure on how to tackle a continuation..

With Love
Eelco

[Gem]

In starting, setting the right sort of space is necessary, and as this is a meditation thread, it has to reflect the ambience of that quality. This means we who contribute here have to actually practice self-awareness and not be mindlessly compelled by our personal reactivity.

The environmental conditions have to be conducive to insight, otherwise there is no point in discussion.

Those of us who have taken retreat in a formal setting would understand the preparations. Taking refuge, taking sila vows, and otherwise 'setting the mood'.

This is not a formal setting, so it's not particularly relevant to go into any detail about such formalities, but refuge is primarily surrendering to the truth of oneself, and sila is basically not hurting others. Then there is the sangha, which in this forum context, is us. We have to maintain high respect so that collectively we are a sangha that any person could sensibly take refuge in.

If I'm wrong, then please understand the point is our common purpose is to realise what is true of ourselves and we serve that purpose by creating the conditions most conducive to that end. In our own minds those conditions are stillness of being, silence of presence, and should our minds be of such qualities, the external conditions will manifest here accordingly.

All this implies that this discussion is an exercise in mindfulness and not just a discussion about mindfulness.

If we see the relevance of this - not the correctness or the incorrectness of it, but the basic principle of it - then it is akin, albeit far less formal, to the preparations one would experience in a formal ashram setting. If the point in principle is understood, I think reasonable people can see the sense in what I'm saying. Not agree and disagree with it, not another 'very important opinion' - but to actually see it.

Finally. This mindfulness is 'to see for oneself' not only the experience as it happens, but the fundamental nature if it - the truth about it. It follows that the discourse here should be led by such intent in accordance with the purpose of the meditation - to consciously realise what is 'true of you', in the sense that insight is the way of liberation.

With that in mind, or not in mind, but with that said and heard, I would hope we have 'set the tone', and with the 'right mind', we might continue on to breathing, as the sutta in practical order begins with the breathing.