The Three Kayas

[sky]

Originally Posted by Rain95

Yes normally true. It depends on what you mean by "pushing away." Are you resisting, with thought? If so, you are not pushing thought away at all. Your consciousness is still identified with it, still in it. One part of thought is imagining itself as the "self" that will get rid of the other, the actual thought. Both are thought. Both describe a consciousness focusing on thought.

This room we are in is empty. Thought is not here. Thought is in the mind. We can be in this room without being in mind. But then this can be done in subtle incomplete ways or fully.

The room I am in is far from empty.... and thoughts are definitely with me
I can choose to ignore them though but there still in the room...

[Rain95]

It's actually impossible to be in conflict with somebody else if you don't have an opinion.

Like say you wake up and your spouse or roommate says, "I want you to do all the dishes, do my laundry, and vacuum the stairs and the whole house you lazy slob."

What does your brain do when hearing that? Normally it would push back. But what if you had no opinions? No expectations or interpretations or beliefs?

So you say, "Ok," and then set upon doing all of those chores. That is living non-verbally.

It's not that thoughts are not there, it's that they are non-phenomenal to you. No effect. You can still talk to people, communicate, use thought and words but that use of language is not based on a consciousness whose experience and reality is dictated by words.

Say you start doing the dishes and the thoughts come, "man I hate doing this. I want to be on the computer. This is not fair, most of this mess was made by other people." You do feel conflict there. But the reality is doing the dishes did not cause this conflict or these unpleasant feelings. There is only one thing that makes this activity good or bad. Accepting thoughts as real. When the thought came, "I don't like doing this," one accepted that as reality. It was not questioned. If it was questioned, one would see it is not real.

It's like somebody saying, "I want to go on vacation so I can relax." One can relax at home and anywhere and at anytime. But the thought is accepted as real. So it creates an effect. It is a self fulfilling loop of belief and experience. And that is a normal life.

Living non-verbally means being your true self and experiencing that and projecting that and not being your thought and word created self. That non-verbal self can use language, can talk, can sing, can write, it is using verbage, which is different from being verbage.

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by sky123

The room I am in is far from empty.... and thoughts are definitely with me
I can choose to ignore them though but there still in the room...

Well your head is in the room and the thoughts are in your head, but the main point there is your attention is in your head or on your thoughts.

Ignore there means to place your attention somewhere else. In this case, it would be on the nature of the room before you entered it. To experience that.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Rain95

It's actually impossible to be in conflict with somebody else if you don't have an opinion.

Like say you wake up and your spouse or roommate says, "I want you to do all the dishes, do my laundry, and vacuum the stairs and the whole house you lazy slob."

What does your brain do when hearing that? Normally it would push back. But what if you had no opinions? No expectations or interpretations or beliefs?

So you say, "Ok," and then set upon doing all of those chores. That is living non-verbally.

It's not that thoughts are not there, it's that they are non-phenomenal to you. No effect. You can still talk to people, communicate, use thought and words but that use of language is not based on a consciousness whose experience and reality is dictated by words.

Say you start doing the dishes and the thoughts come, "man I hate doing this. I want to be on the computer. This is not fair, most of this mess was made by other people." You do feel conflict there. But the reality is doing the dishes did not cause this conflict or these unpleasant feelings. There is only one thing that makes this activity good or bad. Accepting thoughts as real. When the thought came, "I don't like doing this," one accepted that as reality. It was not questioned. If it was questioned, one would see it is not real.

It's like somebody saying, "I want to go on vacation so I can relax." One can relax at home and anywhere and at anytime. But the thought is accepted as real. So it creates an effect. It is a self fulfilling loop of belief and experience. And that is a normal life.

Living non-verbally means being your true self and experiencing that and projecting that and not being your thought and word created self. That non-verbal self can use language, can talk, can sing, can write, it is using verbage, which is different from being verbage.

If you are experiencing the upsets of:

"man I hate doing this. I want to be on the computer. This is not fair, most of this mess was made by other people." You do feel conflict there.

Those are your obstructions, that is your suffering. Dismissing this automatic reaction, those feelings does not remove them. The task is never the issue, it is you, your thoughts, how you are upset about what someone says or how someone treats you. Not getting the new job promotion, the boss not liking your idea. The desire for a cigarette, for food to make you feel better.

Now I agree one can question ones thoughts to find they are not real and assist in this. Loving What Is, is a very good method that does just that. Yet all you are doing is examining your thinking. Examining your beliefs.

1.Is it true? (Yes or no. If no, move to 3.)
2.Can you absolutely know that it's true? (Yes or no.)
3.How do you react, what happens, when you believe that thought?
4.Who would you be without the thought?

It is not the same as truly letting it go so that when the same situation arises there is no upset that attaches, no automatic reaction.

The more one clears away those upsets the more clarity one realizes.

How does one clear away those upsets?

In Buddhism it is with meditation that silences the mind to let the issues drop and in later stages with energy practices which hits upon those issues.

It is not a false persona, a projection but a state of being that gets ever deeper, ever joyful, ever blissful.

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Loving What Is, is a very good method that does just that.

All methods have their source in thought don't they? Thought is a tricky thing. Always keeps its foot in the door, metaphorically speaking.

Why do we seek a method or technique?

The problems of life do not demand a method, because they are so vital and alive that if we approach with a method we totally misunderstand and don't adequately meet that problem. The means and the end are not separate.

Reality is something that cannot come by a technique, a means, or through a long, determined practice, method or discipline.

Emptiness implies no means. You are not empty when you have a means.

Krishnamurti - August 21, 1949

All methods. practices, and techniques require a self that operates in time, a self based on thought. So Krishnamurti rejected all of these things.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I think at times you come across in a negative light with regard to what you call "special experiences".

I come from the equanimity perspective which considers experience as ephemeral, like, 'this will pass'. It doesn't matter is it's a mundane or a special experience.

They are part of the path, things that people experience in and out of practice all the time and need help with.

I know someone right now who has progressed to where he is feeling energy a lot during the day. The energy feels ecstatic, very, very sexual. He is having a hard time trying understanding where this energy is coming from, why is it making him feel this way at all times during the day. Waiting for the bus, at work, it doesn't matter what he is doing and it is making him depressed.

I can assure you that having a silent mind or focusing on the breath won't stop what is happening to him, won't stop the intensity of what is going on.

Exactly.

As a matter of fact having an ungrasping mind when the energy is flowing like that can make it even stronger, more intense. Grasping at it, wanting more makes it go away. Fighting it.. well, just like with my friend can make one depressed.

Yes, reactivity to sensation is 'craving'.

Now in many traditions feeling such ecstatic energy is considered a very good thing. It is a very definite sign of progress.

I'd consider it as an indicator of stages but don't consider it as progress. Progress the stability of equanimity.

Now to some these things are nonsense, concepts, the imagination. To be dismissed because well.. for some they are advanced, have it figured out and they don't feel those things. Maybe, well it of course the person is doing something wrong and if he just ignored that stuff and did something else it would all go away.

It is easy to dismiss what one doesn't understand, what one doesn't have experience in.

Attention remains with the experience 'as it is', and isn't concerned with what experience could be.

The teachings are concepts to those who have yet to realize them. To those who have they are realized lived states of being.

Now if anyone is really serious about finding out if any of it is real I will make this offer to you. To directly show you, to directly introduce you to deeper levels of silence and energy.

It is real easy to find out if any of this stuff is real or not. If it is of the mind or not. If you don't want to work with me, I understand there are others who can introduce you as well if you are interested. If you would rather talk to them, here what people experience, feel, are there lives getting better before you do anything. You can do that as well.

The offer is there for you to find out.. or you can continue down the path of dismissing and belittling teachings you haven't realized yet.

This post isn't just directed at you Gem.. the offer is open to everyone that has an open heart and is truly open to finding out.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Rain95

I can directly feel a monster under my bed as well, all I have to do is believe it is there. What is being directly felt is fear. That and the belief are the only real things there. The experience is fabricated using what exists, fear and belief. That's what you are doing with "feelings" and "energy." You are fabricating experience using belief and actual feelings.

It's a good point to raise, 'actual feelings,' because the primary Buddhist approach regards the real-lived-experience as it is, and it doesn't promote special sorts of experience which people want.

One is not experiencing a monster, they are experiencing a belief in a monster. The feelings of fear are real as is the belief. Belief exist as a physical thing in the brain. Fear is a real chemically produced feeling as well. Belief leads to real experiences and feelings. Then you can say, well the beliefs are real because you have the feelings, you feel their reality.

The discourses go on to explain how the 6 senses unify at the feeling level (these days we know it's the 'nervous system' all senses work through). Thought perception (as well as sight, sound, smell, taste) creates ripples in the system producing felt sensation. From feeling craving arises. This is well aligned with what you said.

That's the game one can play. Better than playing games with belief and egotism, one can live simply in the now, observing one's self, and learning to live non-verbally and non-attached in each moment, in tune with our natural state of peace, without conflict within or without, in the new reality that manifests when one is awake and alert, and empty within, free from thinking and thought and conditioning and memories. One is self knowledge, awake and alert awareness, manifesting the inerrant qualities of the original self.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Rain95

Yes volition is basically defined as using one's will, choosing or determining, the act of making a choice or decision. It is the process by which we act and this acting is based on something. Something compels action. Different states of consciousness compel different actions (or reactions.)

'Volition' is a strange word in the Buddhist context because volition is the essence of kamma. Kamma can be thought of as the process by which manifestation occurs. Volition is 'cause' in the Buddhist context. It can be action and reaction (there is no clear distinction between these - they are the 'same dynamic'). Volition is 'that which moves the mind' (as opposed to stillness). Cessation of volition is no generation of kamma, the cessation of the cause of re-birth, the end of suffering. Hence, the meditation is 'just observation' rather than trying to make experiences happen.

A simple example of this would be stating something you believe is true, then having someone disagree with you, then feeling conflict between you and them.

The "volition" there would be stating an inward belief or thought externally in such a way others can then be made aware of it. Then their "volition" is to refute it, to say it is untrue.

The "outcome" is conflict in this case. If someone agreed with the belief, the "outcome" would have been pleasurable.

One can be aware of these habitual processes, leading to self knowledge, which can lead to self realization. Belief is conceptual reality applied onto non-conceptual reality. The "world" is experienced through the filter of the conceptual. Self-realization allows one to experience the "world" directly, without belief or the conceptual.



Belief is like a pair of orange sunglasses one looks through. They can be thrown away! But one has to be aware one is looking through them.



Disposition is the manifested qualities of mind and character. The present state of the person, including all aspects of self, memory, mood, awareness etc. Being aware of our current state, changes it. We have added a new element, awareness of the self as it is.

[running]

Originally Posted by Rain95

It's actually impossible to be in conflict with somebody else if you don't have an opinion.

Like say you wake up and your spouse or roommate says, "I want you to do all the dishes, do my laundry, and vacuum the stairs and the whole house you lazy slob."

What does your brain do when hearing that? Normally it would push back. But what if you had no opinions? No expectations or interpretations or beliefs?

So you say, "Ok," and then set upon doing all of those chores. That is living non-verbally.

It's not that thoughts are not there, it's that they are non-phenomenal to you. No effect. You can still talk to people, communicate, use thought and words but that use of language is not based on a consciousness whose experience and reality is dictated by words.

Say you start doing the dishes and the thoughts come, "man I hate doing this. I want to be on the computer. This is not fair, most of this mess was made by other people." You do feel conflict there. But the reality is doing the dishes did not cause this conflict or these unpleasant feelings. There is only one thing that makes this activity good or bad. Accepting thoughts as real. When the thought came, "I don't like doing this," one accepted that as reality. It was not questioned. If it was questioned, one would see it is not real.

It's like somebody saying, "I want to go on vacation so I can relax." One can relax at home and anywhere and at anytime. But the thought is accepted as real. So it creates an effect. It is a self fulfilling loop of belief and experience. And that is a normal life.

Living non-verbally means being your true self and experiencing that and projecting that and not being your thought and word created self. That non-verbal self can use language, can talk, can sing, can write, it is using verbage, which is different from being verbage.

in silence none of it is going to get you stuck in your mind. its more like everything is getting sucked out or simply dissolved on its own. there is nothing to learn or apply. cause it is effortless. not that you dont think and such. from what i understand there could be mental techniques, or philosophies that can be used to help. silence does it all for you effortlessly. its bizarre i guess. a couple times i couldn't understand what all the mental techniques was about. thought it was a waste of time. think i mentioned that here or somewhere. god or whatever gave me an experince of being stuck in the mind in thoughts for a few minutes. that was really weird experince. i forgotten completely what that is like. i no longer look at mental strategies as a waste of time. think he or she was trying to tell me something.

so whatever works for you is what matters. i know your pretty negative about bliss and silence. some kinda conspiracy dating back thousands of years out of india. every yogi from yoganda to jesus is in on it. lol. im just having fun with your opinions on bliss and silence. anyways one day it may be interest to you. but good luck either way.

[sentient]

Wow – this thread ‘progresses’ with such a fast (mind) speed & I am so slow, I’m still on page 1

Back to the 3 Kayas and doing another ‘sketch’:

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I would say the sambhogakaya is what one realizes when they move beyond the 7 chakras and realize emptiness of self.

You might be right there.
The 7 chakras or the 107 steps (or what have you, Hinayana, Mahayana training) are still perhaps like dealing with the linear mind as it opens up and expands and empties itself - or how would one describe it?
It is still like a lone wolf howling at the moon.

But at the 8th Chakra or the 108th step (?) or at the threshold of Tantra/Vajrayana the lone wolf is no longer looking at the moon – the moon is now looking at ‘the lone wolf’ and that puts another spin on the situation entirely.

Perhaps at the entry into Vajrayana one does Mahavajrochana visualizations (?) in order to prepare the (local?) mind, the relative reference point for that shock when you are no longer looking at/for (i.e. seeker of) that moon, but the moon is now looking at/for you.
And at this point the (end of linear) ‘path’ could perhaps better be described as a lotus opening:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...-Lotus.svg.png

It is not an astral thing or just the ability to feel energy from others.

The moon looking at you, I think is Causal Realm and it is the most beautiful, serene, harmonious “Pure Lands”, The Pure Bliss, but it does permeate astral and physical levels. It is all inclusive me thinks, it does not exclude the Subtle Energy Realms ‘below’ it.