How did Illusion of Separation Begin?

[shiningstars]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Hi Joyce,

The illusion of separation came from the Will/Vision of an All-Conscious Self-existent One Being wanting to experience the delight of self-discovery in infinite ways, e.g., the multiplicity of Nature.


~ J

Jyotir's post reminds me of one of my favorite Rumi poems:

Be Lost in the Call

Lord, said David, since you do not need us,
why did you create these two worlds?

Reality replied: O prisoner of time,
I was a secret treasure of kindness and generosity,
and I wished this treasure to be known,
so I created a mirror: its shining face, the heart;
its darkened back, the world;
The back would please you if you've never seen the face.

Has anyone ever produced a mirror out of mud and straw?
Yet clean away the mud and straw,
and a mirror might be revealed.

Until the juice ferments a while in the cask,
it isn't wine. If you wish your heart to be bright,
you must do a little work.

My King addressed the soul of my flesh:
You return just as you left.
Where are the traces of my gifts?

We know that alchemy transforms copper into gold.
This Sun doesn't want a crown or robe from God's grace.
He is a hat to a hundred bald men,
a covering for ten who were naked.

Jesus sat humbly on the back of an ***, my child!
How could a zephyr ride an ***?
Spirit, find your way, in seeking lowness like a stream.
Reason, tread the path of selflessness into eternity.

Remember God so much that you are forgotten.
Let the caller and the called disappear;
be lost in the Call.


"Love is a Stranger", Kabir Helminski
Threshold Books, 1993

[no1wakesup]

In the human experience its a local event and happens after a baby is born when stimulous begins to land on a somethingness forming. Here consciousnes contracts or collapses and becomes subjective. Its best to say that the two appears almost simultaneously and fundamental awareness is born. Not as yet in identity or even a solid sense of oneself, more like a subjective kind of awareness looking out forming and encaptulating its new world. From the first formed relationship, it becomes an invitation for the next relationship...and the next, and the next and so on. Boundaries are formed and like a great domino effect with unceasing momentum, separation begins to solidify in what is now percieved as separation. Without borders there is no space and without space there could never be the perception of linear time. Separation is necessary for time to be there. Past is separate from the future, future is separate from the past, future and past are separate from what is experienced in the mind as the present. The unconscious thinking process that will later ramble on and become the great narrator of "my life" will serve as the ultimate anchor in fueling my separation

[Joyce]

Originally Posted by Fremen

Currently, I'm pretty convinced that the illusion of separateness was desired by Spirit for the experience of it. This would almost certainly cause the manifestation of physicality. I think of this as The Fall. Or the Divine self-wounding, which results in growth through healing.

So many great "points" being made here. So many valid opinions. I'm going to say it's the ego, which is "doing us in" so to say. And until the ego can be quieted, humans will continue to want something better than the other guy, believe one's better, knows more, does more blablabla than the other. Ego thinks of its~self over what's right for the whole of life (which is opinion too And reality's an illusion we have to live through for whatever reason.

And here we are scripting the play on earth.

I love imagining who you all are, what you look like, what you live in, where you live, what makes you tick on your deepest level of your heart intelligence. I'm sure it's a star wars we're all involved in to see how much longer it's going to take for the human species to figure out nothing matters more than the moment of now. Now is to have adequate food, shelter and love. Humans were made to work hard, made to love, and cooperate with each other. Intelligence to "do" since our physical makeup is pretty incapable of living purely like instinct animals. And time doesn't exist elsewhere like it does here on earth, in my humble opinion

Greenslade, I watched the video - thanks. I've seen so many takes on this, and each one sounds as researched and valid, and each is certain to have the answer of where we came from.

Ocean Breeze, was yours just to make us laugh? If you were serious, my comment should just make you smile. Yours sure makes me still smile.

Can't go back, these are the two (besides the last) I can comment on.

I may be buried in snow or swept away by wind by tomorrow. Good Day XO

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by barrynu

Small birds...sparrows,finches,wagtails and robins.
Sometimes the crows and jackdaws if I have food leftover from cooking.

I have a robin that comes into my kitchen every spring and I feed her cheese,sometimes out of my hand,,,she/he is brave as she is feeding her young and as a result of this I have a lot more robins now....I was a little bit worried at first that I might end up with obese cheese loving robins

I feed the rest of them with peanuts and pinhead porridge but when spring comes most of them go back to doing their own thing and I don't see as many....They go back to their natural ways.

4

You have some nice varieties in your area. We have mostly ravens, crows, heaps of magpies, sparrows, some wagtails (not as many as they were a few years ago) In the hollow gum trees nearby we often get flocks of cockatoos. Not so long ago just before heavy rain, we had a flock of black cockatoos which was a rare sight. They came in and were gone within a few hours. There are couple of other species that I need to find out the name of.. I hear them, but they are small and hide out well in the bush setting.

Might be time to do some bird gazing me thinks...

[ocean breeze]

Originally Posted by Joyce

Ocean Breeze, was yours just to make us laugh? If you were serious, my comment should just make you smile. Yours sure makes me still smile.

Since when am i NOT serious? (i didn't type that with a straight face )

Originally Posted by Joyce

Greenslade, I watched the video - thanks. I've seen so many takes on this, and each one sounds as researched and valid, and each is certain to have the answer of where we came from.

You're very welcome. Perhaps separation began with that first African tribe, perhaps it started when we became territorial and stopped migrating. Perhaps it began sometime during the evolutionary chain (that still has a few missing links) and its been in our genes or collective unconsciousness since then.

If we have a perception of separation we can become mirrors for each other because without them we wouldn't be able to 'see' ourselves and 'show' others. With the physical evidence so far perhaps it started in Africa, belief-ways it might have started in Atlantis or with the single consciousness that was all alone in the night. But then, without separation could we be individuals who could have fun exploring? Children don't know much about weather systems, they just know puddles are fun.

[Joyce]

[quote=ocean breeze]Since when am i NOT serious? (i didn't type that with a straight face )/QUOTE]
ocean breeze, I cut/paste this and put the quotes around it hoping it'll appear in a separate window. I technically chose to reply to greenslade's since it's more involved.

And no one dared bother to explain having multiple quotes from multiple folks into one reply

And I haven't been around here long enough to realize you're more light-hearted than always-serious. So thanks again for the laugh.
[quote]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

You're very welcome. Perhaps separation began with that first African tribe, perhaps it started when we became territorial and stopped migrating. Perhaps it began sometime during the evolutionary chain (that still has a few missing links) and its been in our genes or collective unconsciousness since then.

So in other words our origins remain a mystery, enough so anyway. Humanity's egoic separation is here to stay from the looks of it. Too bad we lost our cooperation for the whole -- when we took that first taste of that apple, or the guy next to us grabbed it for himself and we all went to hell in a hand basket Fun to contemplate and research.

If we have a perception of separation we can become mirrors for each other because without them we wouldn't be able to 'see' ourselves and 'show' others.

I totally agree how we are mirrors for each other, so we can recognize what's been attracted, for us to 'see more clearly' who we are. Not sure what you meant when you wrote, "..to see ourselves and show others"? Show them who we are?

When I put the question out about separation, I was thinking along the lines of 'one for all' not one for self, because that was a significant difference say Europeans that came here verses the ones that lived here for thousands of years without it becoming an epidemic to buy, to own, to have, to... that we have today. I'm talking about the USA; I don't know where you're at. AND I haven't got extensive knowledge of the world on the tip of my tongue, or my fingers

With the physical evidence so far perhaps it started in Africa, belief-ways it might have started in Atlantis or with the single consciousness that was all alone in the night.

And I loved what Spirit Science did a few years go, where they went into the idea of Atlantis . . I like that idea, since I'm not convinced this isn't some star wars as I'd said.

But then, without separation could we be individuals who could have fun exploring? Children don't know much about weather systems, they just know puddles are fun.

Certainly by going with my thoughts on separation in heart/mind between cooperation vs dominance, I believe we'd have MORE fun exploring and being our~self in the process. And yes children don't need to know about weather systems to have fun with puddles, which certainly shows the connection between heart/mind effortlessly being a part of their nature, yet not interfering with their happiness.

It's the adult environment then, I'm convinced, that instills the dis-ease causing egoic separation in the sense of the heart/mind.

This is making me think: I have been 'child-like' (yet reasonable intelligence) since my accident. I actually do love how I view life this way now. Could it be that I've been 'brought back' to the cooperation between heart and mind?

Hmmm - I never actually said the cooperation between our heart and mind before, but this is what's happening now isn't it? I, Joyce, won't be around consciously as Joyce anymore, and who knows how incarnations really 'work'. And I will be glad when this lifetime is over. Which isn't to say there aren't great moments.[/font]

[Joyce]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

The illusion of separation came from the Will/Vision of an All-Conscious Self-existent One Being wanting to experience the delight of self-discovery in infinite ways, e.g., the multiplicity of Nature.

Had to cut/paste with lemex, since I haven't been able to figure out how to get multiple people's quotes into one reply. Lemex is longer, so easier this way.

What you've said goes along with what, say, lemex says (and others), about separation for individuality. My thinking, for the question, was not about our individual identities, but about our thinking about cooperation for the whole vs for self - and thanks to you also.

[quote=llemex]

Evidence is people were pretty primitive and life was very difficult...lol. As I believe they did not live in tune with nature.

Guess we just have different ideas about being "in tune with nature". Granted they didn't have the time to enjoy nature, so much, but they most definitely had to deal with what was, not destroy the things they could for profit or self-serving (other than survival) reasons. So I'll stick with that "being in tune". Being in tune, in my opinion, doesn't mean it's easy; only that one goes with the flow, so to say.

I think it's just natural, farmers grouped into small groups, small groups into larger ones, groups became villages, villages cities, cities states, states nations, nations empires, empires civilizations. When we begin to colonized other worlds we'll begin small just like we did. It like cells that become something greater.

Yup.

I must admit, I'm in awe of this starting point as much as they must have been to all the new ideas they had, incorrect as they may have been about a lot of stuff, but I realize I would have arrived at the same conclusion, something we never lose.... We are no where near where we will be and I don't know if I'm willing to stop based on evidence thus far.

I'm curious (the smile and all) what same conclusion? Of being in awe, new ideas (where right or not); like trial and error sort of conclusions? Granted, this we don't loose if we're a curious, adventurous sort today (so many people today are NOT either of those wonderful attributes.

It is quite mind blowing to imagine where ingenuity will take humanity relatively quickly now. The strides are greater and greater geometrically so.

Maybe this thread should be started over, so most understand the separation of heart for the highest good for all, or the highest good for self.

Shall see . . thanks all ~ XO

[awareness]

How to Put in Multiple Quotes from Multiple Members

Greetings, Joyce.

Easy. . .one way to get multiple people's quotes into the same message is to have two tabs on your brower with the same webpage, in this case being the particular Spiritual Forums thread in which you are responding.

What you need to do is to use one of the tabs for posting your response, in which you would copy and paste quotes from other members. In the second tab you simply click "Quote" as if you were going to respond to that member, but you just copy and paste their quote into the first tab where you are really responding.

In other words, you may use the webpage in the second tab to do this for each person you quote, copying and pasting their quoted words into your response box on the webpage in the first tab.

An example:

Originally Posted by bees

Thank you, awareness!

Very helpful. If at some point you are inclined, and/or if within the scope of what you do here, would you mind touching on two topics please: laziness, and how to protect an open heart in a world where there is hurt?

Originally Posted by BehindBlueEyes

Hi Awareness.
How can i be sure i'm on the right path in life? I've been seeing and hearing the name of someone who hurt me badly in the past, everywhere i go. I fear history is repeating itself but I can't seem to see a way out. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.

Now, there is also a way that you may find simpler, using only one webpage with no second tab. Simply open a reply box, and then navigate the page (if the particular member's response is on that particular page of the thread), and copy the selection that you want to respond to, then paste it into your response box, but then make sure you type THIS before the person's quote (but with the particular member's name following the equal sign, of course; below is just an example):

[quote=BehindBlueEyes]

And following the person's quote you type THIS within brackets: /QUOTE

You can of course do this for quoting multiple people, so that your response shows each members' name above each of their quotes that you are responding to.

I hope my answer here is what you were looking for, Joyce, as a solution. If you need further assistance, I would be happy to walk you through it over the phone. Good wishes.

[awareness]

Note:

Joyce, your quote from Ocean Breeze didn't appear within a quote box because after the quoted words you missed one bracket (before the forward slash): [