The Present - Does It Exist??

[r6r6]

organic born--So "time" requires a human to perceive it?

I did not state that. My reply addressed Dans comments, that to me were meant specifically to refence humans if not all animals and biological life.

We do convert time into patterns that are comparable to our own unique experience but does a star experience time in the same way?

I dunno, Ive never conversed with a star, or many biologicals other than humans and other animals to some degree. Again my comments were addressing Dans comments.

Does a rock, over billions of years, even realize that a moment has passed? A fly experiences time quite differently than we do.

I dont have any answers in those regard OB. Your guess is as good as mine as to what that which is not human is experiencing.

Flies avoid being swatted in just the same way Keanu Reeves dodges flying bullets in the movie The Matrix – by watching time pass slowly.

I think that statement is in error OB. Flys can feel the differrence in air pressure from the moving fly swatter and that is why they fly away often times before getting hit.

So who is right about the manor in which time presents itself? We, or the fly, or the cockroach? Just because we measure, and they don't, doesn't mean that one is more valid than the other.

I dont recall anyone here stating a flys pereception is more valid than humans. Same goes for stars and humans or any other object you want to reference to humans.

I think your drawing conclusions and making inferences for others rather than just addressing what they have stated.

OB you kind of remind of to Quick to Draw McGraw from 60's. :--)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Qu...aw_McGraw_Show

r6

[organic born]

Originally Posted by r6r6r

I think that statement is in error OB. Flys can feel the differrence in air pressure from the moving fly swatter and that is why they fly away often times before getting hit.

Or not... :)

https://www.theguardian.com/science/...ly-flies-study
The evidence comes from research into the ability of animals to detect separate flashes of fast-flickering light.

"Critical flicker fusion frequency" – the point at which the flashes seem to merge together, so that a light source appears constant – provides an indication of time perception. Comparing studies of the phenomenon in different animals revealed the link with size.

"A lot of researchers have looked at this in different animals by measuring their perception of flickering light," said Dr Andrew Jackson, from Trinity College Dublin in the Republic of Ireland. "Some can perceive quite a fast flicker and others much slower, so that a flickering light looks like a blur.

Originally Posted by r6r6r

I think your drawing conclusions and making inferences for others rather than just addressing what they have stated.

You are correct. In this case I did read more into what you were saying to Dan_SF than what you had actually said. I went back and reread it and realized you were limiting your discussion to the simple act of observing day and night from a space ship. I was giving you credit for addressing a much larger picture. I keep forgetting how linear you are. :)

PS. You are still using "your" in the place of "you're". :)

[r6r6]

organic born---Or not... :)

https://www.theguardian.com/science/...ly-flies-study
The evidence comes from research into the ability of animals to detect separate flashes of fast-flickering light.

I cant argue with facts. So flys may have more than one way of detecting incoming flyswatter.

You are correct. In this case I did read more into what you were saying to Dan_SF than what you had actually said. I went back and reread it and realized you were limiting your discussion to the simple act of observing day and night from a space ship. I was giving you credit for addressing a much larger picture. I keep forgetting how linear you are. :)

Good, i'm glad were in agreement.

PS. You are still using "your" in the place of "you're". :)

Yeah, I quit school in beginning of 11th grade and did poorly for the 10 years before that. Thanks for correction any time you see them.

r6

[organic born]

Originally Posted by r6r6r

Yeah, I quit school in beginning of 11th grade and did poorly for the 10 years before that. Thanks for correction any time you see them.
r6

You did yourself a favor by getting the heck out of there! School is the means in which vitality is squashed. Why would we take a young child, who was designed for heavyweight activity and force them to sit in a desk and memorize/regurgitate little globs of information that has little to no application in the "real" world! I did moderately okay in school and when I left I threw it all out and rebooted from scratch. A person, who is so inclined, can learn so much more on their own! :)

[SpiritofZoe]

Well this discussion sure took an interesting turn......

[organic born]

Originally Posted by SpiritofZoe

Well this discussion sure took an interesting turn......

We went off-roading for a moment. :)

Rolling back onto the pavement of the thread, here's an interesting observation in relation to our relationship with the present.

Did you know that our "conscious" mind can pay attention to only one center of focus at a time? Try this the next time you're in the shower.

Pay attention to the warm water as it flows over your head and down your neck.
Move around a bit to keep the stream actively in motion on your skin in order to accentuate the effect. Just focus on this occurring without thought.

Now watch what happens when you start "thinking" about something. The sensation of the flowing water is not registering, because you are now paying attention to the thoughts and not the water. Your body is still paying attention because if the temperature of the water were to change then it will inform you of so, right away. But your "conscious awareness" of the water is now missing, it's on the thoughts instead.

When you catch yourself doing so and return to a full awareness of the water flowing over you, you are then unable to form a "thought" as long as your attention is on the water. One thing at a time. We can flicker back and forth between "thinking and the water" but we can't "consciously" fully do both at the same time.

You can do similar, as the above, while eating. :)

-------------------
"Rid yourself of the ego in order to observe the secrets of the universe, but keep the ego in order to observe it's manifestations. " ...Tao Te Ching

[Dan_SF]

Originally Posted by r6r6r

Dan, altho it is true, that if we did not see sun, moon and other celestial objects moving across the sky, then we would less significant references for time, however, even if the Earth did not rotate it still the tilt of the Earth axis would create seasons.



So your hypothetical holds would most be true, the reality of your hypotheticals are not very realistic unless, humans were living on a inorganic spaceship somewhere out in space, that, is not rotating or has no windows or moving so slow, that there would be no relatively often occurring changes that humans could reference their time of existence too, other than their body changes and any celstial objects that they may view changing position over the months or years, and the sun getting dimmer or brighter etc.

I.e to know there is motion then we have to observe reference of change. Changing position, or changing whatever.

r6

well, slicing and dicing time to the smallest parts wont help you to experience the Present.

I have provided you an idea, on how to look on the time, so you can start to dismiss your future thoughts and ones from the past.

What the Present holds, you can only experience. I experienced it few times, and i would like to keep it that way.

[r6r6]

Dan_SFwell, slicing and dicing time to the smallest parts wont help you to experience the Present.

Not sure what your refering too. If the tetrahedron then you don't understand the differrence between small-large which has to do with size, whereas minimal has to do with least amount of parts that give us a 3D volume.

The size of the tetrahedron is irrelevant to 3D volume and 2D slice-of-mind, time, consciousness, etc.....

I have provided you an idea, on how to look on the time, so you can start to dismiss your future thoughts and ones from the past.

What I laid out is how the 2D present is warped forward - present - backward i.e. and oscillating 2D set of events, and specifically the minimal set of events that compose the 3D tetrahedron.

What I provide is a 2D visual that can have the illusion of 3D volume because of oscillation.

What the Present holds, you can only experience. I experienced it few times, and i would like to keep it that way.

What the present holds is a oscillating 2D slice-of-time/spirit-2, mind/spirit-1 consciousness combination of both etc......imho, that we all experience.

<|>

<2D>

<< past out < ( * | * ) in future < <

< past out < ( * | * ) in future < <

< past out < ( *<|>* ) in future < <

Here is link to pyramid that has both the outside out tetrahedron and the inside out tetrahedron existent at same time, however, if oscillating fast enough we might never know that.
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/TriangularDipyramid.html

To be clear, this link above does not reflect an actual inside-outing tetrahedron because it subdivided 2D triangle at the half-way point is not included.

So were have to infer/imply or imagine its existent in this Wolfram link to a pyramid, not and inside outing tetrahedron.

r6

[Dan_SF]

im referring to attaining the experience of the Present by dismissing the usual belief of the future.

And the experience is nothing of what can be calculated. It must be experienced to be understood BUT it can't be explained because i don't know how to expain it, nor how the happenings have been caused. The only thing i can tell you that it is understandable when you experience it.

[r6r6]

Dan_SF---im referring to attaining the experience of the Present by dismissing the usual belief of the future.

You mentioned slicing and dicing so that is what I was responding too specifically.

And the experience is nothing of what can be calculated.

Some experiences can be calculated based on averages what we observe. Ex we calculate a baby will be born, on average, approximately 9 months after conception.

With more and more genetic knowledge I imagine human caculations of what most humans will experience, on average, will increase in accuracy, just as ability to predict weather more accurately has occurred.

It must be experienced to be understood BUT it can't be explained because i don't know how to expain it, nor how the happenings have been caused. The only thing i can tell you that it is understandable when you experience it.

It is about flow, change and differrentiation. Ive laid all three of those with the examples I've laid out with additional links to assist.

A picture is worth a thousand words, is an ole saying that has much value. To understand gravity, the visual of a fabric sheet where a mass dimples the fabric has been used and as aid to understanding gravity for some 80 years{s} now.

forward <|> obverse

forward <2|D> obverse

change forward <2|D> obverse change
...........<oscillation>.... see first atomic clock

..."These clocks do not keep time according to atomic decay, but rather by the oscillation of the nucleus of an atom and its surrounding electrons. The mass of the nucleus and the gravity and electrostatic “spring” between the positively charged nucleus and the electrons set the oscillation frequencies. This oscillation is not directly analogous to the time keeping of normal clocks, but both types of clocks use oscillations to keep track of time. Atomic clocks are more reliable time keepers because their oscillations are not subject to change according to environmental factors such as humidity that would decrease the accuracy of normal clocks."......

http://www3.nd.edu/~techrev/Archive/Winter2002/a4.html

<< past out < ( * | * ) < in future < < flow of time

<< past out < ( * | * ) in future < < flow of time

<< past out < ( *<|>* ) in future < < flow of time

Metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts ergo spirit-of-intention
....aka spirit-1.......