Rational Thought & The Paradox...

[SkyGodWarrior]

This post is in response to a comment that was made.....

Many people find it hard to believe the miracles of life... and when one asks another it is often hard to put into words because of the source of the information often comes in an instant and in the form of a emotion or understanding.....

How does one translate something that if was spread out in time would take hrs to understand but you got it somehow instantly....?

Do you often notice how some people who are really rational dont believe in things that are spiritual in nature... even faced with a circumstance that is miracle or magical in nature and they refuse this and look for a rational solution....?

this is the path that a being must take in order to find their way back to source... to the truth..... often I say the more rational you are the more work you have to do in order to realize that things are irrational.... The only limitation of rationality is that it can be manipulated into inhibiting what is unlimited and infinite.

it is a complex subject that has no answer but if one simple understands its nature will find its answers... it is interesting to think of such examples.... chick or the egg..... how can their be an egg if there is no chicken? how can their be a chick if there is no egg? Big bang or spontaneous existence? What created such a bang? What created the conditions to create the bang.... what created that? These same paradoxes are in everything if one takes to the time to dive deep..... another easy example would be material science or subatomic particles..... with every machine we make in order to see smaller objects at the core of atom the more we have to build another machine to see even closer...... does it go on forever? lol.... how does such things even exist?

this is the nature at is core of rational thought and the paradox.....
ask questions lol debate... learn...

[marcel]

I think the distiction between "spiritual" and "rational" is moot, because most people are neither just one or just the other.
A rational person will not limit his belief to only the things he can see and a spiritual person will not limit his belief to only the things he feels.
Whether someone believes in a "miracle" does not depend on leaning more towards spirituality or rational thought. It depends on ones imagination.
If someone tells you something you haven't experienced yourself you wouldn't just believe it. You don't need proof but you would try to imagine it to be true and then decide if it fits into your set of beliefs.
Btw. the chicken/egg thing is no paradox. Neither was first and there's a perfectly rational explanation for that.

[Starman]

I think humanity, in general, either strictly chooses, or vacillates, between two paths;
the path of the head and the path of the heart. Back in the 1990’s I did some comparative
dynamics on these paths, which I have listed a little from that below, but I do not think there
is a better or worst in either path, although I am aware that some people prefer one to the other.
These paths are how we have chosen to cultivate our human potential, and I have chosen to do
my human growth and development on both paths. I am aware that some will disagree with what
I am sharing below, and that is okay, but I do not see “right” or “wrong” in this, rather I just see
perspectives.

PATH OF THE HEART/PATH OF THE HEAD
Intuitive Knowing/Rational Logic
Subjective/Objective
Right Brain/Left Brain
Creative & Flexible/Linear & Concrete
Transformational Synthesis/Conceptual Analysis of Constructs
Covert Sublime Consciousness/Overt Self Consciousness
Deductive Experiential/Inductive Theoretical
Simple Spaciousness/Complex Elaboration
Fluid Process/Static Content
Journey Oriented/Outcome & Goal Oriented
Emotional Intelligence/Mental Intelligence
Affective Feeling/Cognitive Thinking
Here and Now/Past and Future
Having a Connection/Having an Interpretation

This is but a sample of some of what I came up with back in the 1990’s when I was doing this comparative study.
An most probably the majority of people vacillates between both paths, but I can remember when I was strictly
in my head and knew little to nothing about my heart.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by SkyGodWarrior

Many people find it hard to believe the miracles of life... and when one asks another it is often hard to put into words because of the source of the information often comes in an instant and in the form of a emotion or understanding.....

Do you often notice how some people who are really rational dont believe in things that are spiritual in nature... even faced with a circumstance that is miracle or magical in nature and they refuse this and look for a rational solution....?

this is the path that a being must take in order to find their way back to source... to the truth..... often I say the more rational you are the more work you have to do in order to realize that things are irrational.... The only limitation of rationality is that it can be manipulated into inhibiting what is unlimited and infinite.

Or perhaps everything is rational and there is nothing magical or miraculous.

By which I mean that everything is governed by the laws of Creation, and those things which we might consider to be magical or miraculous are actually governed by laws which most of us do not yet understand.

Nowadays we take things like television and aeroplanes for granted, yet two hundred years ago these would have been considered as miraculous. So perhaps things which nowadays we might consider miraculous will become commonplace in the future.

Some people like to think that science is rational, but unfortunately it is not. It promotes a very limited world-view, and anything which it cannot explain is either rejected or distorted to fit into a very limited perspective.

For example, the near death experience (NDE). Those who don't believe that consciousness can exist beyond the physical body come up with all sorts of explanations for NDEs - eg the dying brain fires off loads of neurons which produce the experience of leaving the body, seeing a Being of Light, etc. They consider that this is the rational explanation for NDEs, whereas they are really distorting a phenomenon to fit their preconceived ideas. If such people were truly rational they would consider the phenomenon of NDE with an open mind and consider all possible explanations, including the possibility that consciousness is not dependent on the physical brain.

Dean Radin has written some interesting books where he considers the limitations of the so-called rational scientific approach to non-physical phenomena, including many cases where scientists reject empirical evidence simply because it contradicts their cherished "rational" beliefs.

Peace.

[sentient]

I suppose it really does depend on where one's “Assemblage Point of Awareness” (Castaneda quote) is assembled.
Perceiving form reality only with one’s physical senses gives rise to the thought that all psychic or non-physical phenomena is irrational or just the mental aberrations of the feeble minded natives, the low IQ no-hopers unable to achieve anything real in life

The Yoga Nidra view:
http://www.ayurvedacollege.com/artic...ice-yoga-nidra

One of the early realizations is that the body is not a solid structure but rather a densely packed field of energy. At this time the practitioner realizes that he or she is neither their body nor their mind.

My own formula goes something like this (and others can perhaps explain this a lot better):
What our Energy Bodies/Fields subconsciously/intuitively perceive (become aware of) – the Astral level dreams up and/or our Right Hemisphere receives – which is then further condensed into words by our Left Hemispheres.

Originally Posted by iamthat

Dean Radin has written some interesting books where he considers the limitations of the so-called rational scientific approach to non-physical phenomena, including many cases where scientists reject empirical evidence simply because it contradicts their cherished "rational" beliefs.

Looked Dean Radin up, and yes – sounds good!:
http://www.azquotes.com/quote/586114

Awareness is more fundamental than space, time, matter or energy.
Through awareness you can see past, present and future, because awareness is before space-time.

Interestingly one of my Aboriginal teachers explained “Dreamtime” in very similar terms.

Awareness is unitary. There is just one mind.
Physical world emerges from awareness.

I used to think that all people experiencing psychic phenomena were ‘Spiritual’ (because they are aware through their Energy Fields), but now since I know 2 (malicious) narcissists who have highly developed psychic abilities, I no longer hold my former belief.

Here Dean Radin’s chart becomes interesting:
https://www.aestheticimpact.com/_Ima...pectrum2-1.gif

Because a narcissist “Assemblage Point of Awareness” is so firmly lodged in the Self-Image i.e. the validation of Me/I in-the-eyes-of-others, there is no free-and-independent-will energy left to intend anything else but the validation and the fortification of that Self-Image.
And since (in my books) the “Mystical Union” entails total surrender of the Me/I (being able achieve anything) a narcissist is (by their own will) barred from this Non-Dual Union.
But of course those who do experience Non-Duality don’t see themselves as anything especially “Spiritual” at all.

Originally Posted by sentient

I suppose it really does depend on where one's “Assemblage Point of Awareness” (Castaneda quote) is assembled.
Perceiving form reality only with one’s physical senses gives rise to the thought that all psychic or non-physical phenomena is irrational or just the mental aberrations of the feeble minded natives, the low IQ no-hopers unable to achieve anything real in life

The Yoga Nidra view:
http://www.ayurvedacollege.com/artic...ice-yoga-nidra

My own formula goes something like this (and others can perhaps explain this a lot better):
What our Energy Bodies/Fields subconsciously/intuitively perceive (become aware of) – the Astral level dreams up and/or our Right Hemisphere receives – which is then further condensed into words by our Left Hemispheres.



Looked Dean Radin up, and yes – sounds good!:
http://www.azquotes.com/quote/586114

Interestingly one of my Aboriginal teachers explained “Dreamtime” in very similar terms.


I used to think that all people experiencing psychic phenomena were ‘Spiritual’ (because they are aware through their Energy Fields), but now since I know 2 (malicious) narcissists who have highly developed psychic abilities, I no longer hold my former belief.

Here Dean Radin’s chart becomes interesting:
https://www.aestheticimpact.com/_Ima...pectrum2-1.gif

Because a narcissist “Assemblage Point of Awareness” is so firmly lodged in the Self-Image i.e. the validation of Me/I in-the-eyes-of-others, there is no free-and-independent-will energy left to intend anything else but the validation and the fortification of that Self-Image.
And since (in my books) the “Mystical Union” entails total surrender of the Me/I (being able achieve anything) a narcissist is (by their own will) barred from this Non-Dual Union.
But of course those who do experience Non-Duality don’t see themselves as anything especially “Spiritual” at all.

Agree and enjoy your posts, sentient

PS Are you Aboriginal, or do you just follow their teachings? Are Aboriginal folk very spiritual as a culture?

Thanks and apologies if any questions are intrusive

JL

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by sentient

I suppose it really does depend on where one's “Assemblage Point of Awareness” (Castaneda quote) is assembled.
Perceiving form reality only with one’s physical senses gives rise to the thought that all psychic or non-physical phenomena is irrational or just the mental aberrations of the feeble minded natives, the low IQ no-hopers unable to achieve anything real in life

The Yoga Nidra view:
http://www.ayurvedacollege.com/artic...ice-yoga-nidra

My own formula goes something like this (and others can perhaps explain this a lot better):
What our Energy Bodies/Fields subconsciously/intuitively perceive (become aware of) – the Astral level dreams up and/or our Right Hemisphere receives – which is then further condensed into words by our Left Hemispheres.



Looked Dean Radin up, and yes – sounds good!:
http://www.azquotes.com/quote/586114

Interestingly one of my Aboriginal teachers explained “Dreamtime” in very similar terms.


I used to think that all people experiencing psychic phenomena were ‘Spiritual’ (because they are aware through their Energy Fields), but now since I know 2 (malicious) narcissists who have highly developed psychic abilities, I no longer hold my former belief.

Here Dean Radin’s chart becomes interesting:
https://www.aestheticimpact.com/_Ima...pectrum2-1.gif

Because a narcissist “Assemblage Point of Awareness” is so firmly lodged in the Self-Image i.e. the validation of Me/I in-the-eyes-of-others, there is no free-and-independent-will energy left to intend anything else but the validation and the fortification of that Self-Image.
And since (in my books) the “Mystical Union” entails total surrender of the Me/I (being able achieve anything) a narcissist is (by their own will) barred from this Non-Dual Union.
But of course those who do experience Non-Duality don’t see themselves as anything especially “Spiritual” at all.

I am totally going with this!

The human ego is a very powerful, willful and stubborn thing, which is totally capable of subconsciously/unconsciously altering perceptions through cognitive dissonance to serve the agenda of the "rational mind".

Yet, what is this rationality but an unrealistic ethical concept based upon a collective social mindset of a finite four dimensional continuum? As such, of course any experience of something outside this, in the form of exstasis or transcendence is going to be seen as being "irrational"...but the whole crux of the matter is, will the ego ever be able to actually LET a person admit that to themselves or others? Suffice to say that rationality has its own time and place, but many think that is "every time" and "every place" and their arrogant, prideful ego will accept nothing less.

As for narcissists being "banned" from spirituality and having spiritual experiences...Yes and no. That all depends upon whether the narcissist is totally honest with themselves yet makes the conscious choice to be a narcissist anyway but can also shift into depersonalisation at the drop of a hat, yet remain as a witness to all the different roles they choose to play..like an actor upon a stage.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I am totally going with this!

The human ego is a very powerful, willful and stubborn thing, which is totally capable of subconsciously/unconsciously altering perceptions through cognitive dissonance to serve the agenda of the "rational mind".

Yet, what is this rationality but an unrealistic ethical concept based upon a collective social mindset of a finite four dimensional continuum? As such, of course any experience of something outside this, in the form of exstasis or transcendence is going to be seen as being "irrational"...but the whole crux of the matter is, will the ego ever be able to actually LET a person admit that to themselves or others? Suffice to say that rationality has its own time and place, but many think that is "every time" and "every place" and their arrogant, prideful ego will accept nothing less.

As for narcissists being "banned" from spirituality and having spiritual experiences...Yes and no. That all depends upon whether the narcissist is totally honest with themselves yet makes the conscious choice to be a narcissist anyway but can also shift into depersonalisation at the drop of a hat, yet remain as a witness to all the different roles they choose to play..like an actor upon a stage.

Shivani, hello! I think you hit upon it...in the physical realm, we are limited by our 4D perceptions taking place in 5D, 1 planck frame at a time, in sequence. That's the physical eye of the needle through which you must pass to experience the greater fullness of What Is, but we cannot physically do that. Not unless we were God and we were able to cast an entirely different physical reality from the top down -- a universe in which these bodies and this earth and all similar probably wouldn't be able to exist, LOL. When I see this phrase that so clearly fits the multidimensional nature of reality out of the mouth of this man from the Galilee, I admit I am fairly impressed.

That's the physical ceiling at present built into the fabric of this universe, and it is a bit of a logjam unless we completely transcend the logjam through expansion of our consciousness. Specifically, through our awakened, heart-led consciousness (our centre), with awakened mind in service to heart. Like the native elder said, it is that which exists before (and beyond) space and time and we reclaim it by centreing in our awareness.

Not that we can't do our best to use our rational aspects of our awakened mind to deal with our 4D realm...of course we can and should. But we do need to be mindful of the limitations. I think when we begin to these discussions, the key thing is that many don't exactly or fully realise the nature of the limitation.

Therefore there is an assumption that the all that lies beyond the 5D planck level can (at least one day) be accessed and apprehended by the same mind and physical senses that we use to apprehend the 4D world we live in. Likewise with all other aspects of existence (in the broadest sense) that are intangible and metaphysical in the classic sense of knowing What Is.

But since the physical universe is also 4D, and we are a part of this physical universe in the physical sense....then that assumption that our physical senses and rational physical brain will fully or even partially apprehend many of these things is unfounded and purely speculative. Further, it is extremely unlikely that our 4D paraphenalia alone will be adequate or up to the task..

Yet when it comes to both everyday and mystical experiences of Love, One, centredness and so forth, we are already experiencing a much greater spectrum of What Is, far beyond just 4D -- and we experience it from a place of expanded awareness whilst present physically within our 4D physical realm. I think the disconnect begins here, and that it will continue to grow, probably exponentially

This is where the buddhists and the native elders and wisdom teachers of many traditions say not only one's own work (meditation, inner work) but also group work becomes so important. So that you have common experiences and illuminations around which to begin to build some sort of language or discourse for talking about consciousness and experiences beyond strictly 4D. The funny thing is that as long as we are in 4D, we can't get away from language it seems...but perhaps we can learn how to use it in new contexts beyond 4D.

Peace & blessings
7L

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Shivani, hello! I think you hit upon it...in the physical realm, we are limited by our 4D perceptions taking place in 5D, 1 planck frame at a time, in sequence. That's the physical eye of the needle through which you must pass to experience the greater fullness of What Is, but we cannot physically do that. Not unless we were God and we were able to cast an entirely different physical reality from the top down -- a universe in which these bodies and this earth and all similar probably wouldn't be able to exist, LOL. When I see this phrase that so clearly fits the multidimensional nature of reality out of the mouth of this man from the Galilee, I admit I am fairly impressed.

That's the physical ceiling at present built into the fabric of this universe, and it is a bit of a logjam unless we completely transcend the logjam through expansion of our consciousness. Specifically, through our awakened, heart-led consciousness (our centre), with awakened mind in service to heart. Like the native elder said, it is that which exists before (and beyond) space and time and we reclaim it by centreing in our awareness.

Not that we can't do our best to use our rational aspects of our awakened mind to deal with our 4D realm...of course we can and should. But we do need to be mindful of the limitations. I think when we begin to these discussions, the key thing is that many don't exactly or fully realise the nature of the limitation.

Therefore there is an assumption that the all that lies beyond the 5D planck level can (at least one day) be accessed and apprehended by the same mind and physical senses that we use to apprehend the 4D world we live in. Likewise with all other aspects of existence (in the broadest sense) that are intangible and metaphysical in the classic sense of knowing What Is.

But since the physical universe is also 4D, and we are a part of this physical universe in the physical sense....then that assumption that our physical senses and rational physical brain will fully or even partially apprehend many of these things is unfounded and purely speculative. Further, it is extremely unlikely that our 4D paraphenalia alone will be adequate or up to the task..

Yet when it comes to both everyday and mystical experiences of Love, One, centredness and so forth, we are already experiencing a much greater spectrum of What Is, far beyond just 4D -- and we experience it from a place of expanded awareness whilst present physically within our 4D physical realm. I think the disconnect begins here, and that it will continue to grow, probably exponentially

This is where the buddhists and the native elders and wisdom teachers of many traditions say not only one's own work (meditation, inner work) but also group work becomes so important. So that you have common experiences and illuminations around which to begin to build some sort of language or discourse for talking about consciousness and experiences beyond strictly 4D. The funny thing is that as long as we are in 4D, we can't get away from language it seems...but perhaps we can learn how to use it in new contexts beyond 4D.

Peace & blessings
7L

My love...

I am very quickly getting to that stage whereby 99.9℅ of people are not able to understand me anyway, no matter how "rational" I am, due to a severe discrepancy in comparative IQ levels.

To be able to communicate on any level whatsoever, requires a certain degree of "state specifics" in that, they don't have the intelligence and I don't have the ability to "dumb it down" either, so whenever anybody asks me a question about anything, they wish they never did.

To avoid making enemies, I simply have to tell others "I'm sorry, but I don't know" when I DO know, simply because if I even TRIED to explain it, they would never be able to get it, so why bother? Why risk them ending up hating you for your superior intellect?

I am tired of it...I just need to keep my insights and theories to myself because mankind is just not ready for all this yet...but it is very isolating to be the one of them only a handful in this world... meanwhile, acting much lower than my capacity, capability and personal power JUST so that I can communicate with another living soul and not have them bolt off in the opposite direction as fast as their legs can carry them...

So, until anybody ELSE has this very experience regarding rationality vs spirituality, they cannot talk! Please get back to me when you guys DO!

To me, if you believe (i.e. the external phenomenon cannot be observed independently) and it's therefore noumenal / esoteric, then it conforms to an internal logic unique to the individual which in turn depends on the premise/s one creates.

As it's almost impossible to describe these premises entirely with words (because everyone's internal definition of the symbols of experiences differ) discussion can only be limited.

What's irrational to me is when someone's response arises from something they don't understand about themselves - they haven't had time to set up premises to support/create their internal logic. Could be argued that there's a cause for their reaction somewhere but if it exists outside their understanding that would seem to count as irrational.

I don't think that rationality and spirituality are mutually exclusive. We can't really know.