Neo Advaita vs. Classical Advaita

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by shiningstars

Yes, being nobody is being somebody, that much should have been obvious. An excellent point by you.

My only real question here is how much self-deception is involved in adhering to a belief like this. Realization through practice is a different beast altogether. Hence Buddhists talk about not mixing up the fruit with the practice, or the map with the outcome.

Jyotir's post bears repeating on this topic -



shiningstars

Yes thats the golden ticket or the light that blinds the non dualists . I am nothing, I am no-one blah, blah, blah is self identifying .

One is simply swapping someone for no-one

If they really believed there is no-one here then they would not support the dream / illusory self .

They wouldn't hesitate to not eat, they would not hesitate to walk off a cliff .

The reason why they preserve life as they know it is because they believe on some level that they are someone that is in experience .

If I didn't believe truly that you were here I wouldn't sit here writing you a post .

Thanks for Jyotir's post link . I have known him for a while now and I resonate with much of what he says .



x daz x

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by jimrich

7, I'd be very interested to know exactly how this "no one exists" philosophy has impacted or harmed anyone so please offer some more details on that. Re: Jeff Foster, I'd google him to see what all he has to say and offer those in need.


I'd be interested in your story, if and when you are comfortable telling it.


I can agree that females may be more able to show empathy to a trauma survivor than us men. My mother was much kinder than her sadistic, brutal and INSANE husband ever was.


I'd say that counseling can be harder since a good counselor needs to have done their own inner work to be able to understand and EMPATHIZE with a damaged, hurting trauma Survivor and IMO, many so-called counselors are NOT emotionally resolved them selves so they make for very bad and even dangerous counselors.


True healing can only be done when the Healer is also "healed" or resolved.


I applaud you.

Jim, thanks for your kind response. I suppose I meant that I and others I know, both, have got some very confusing and odd feedback over the yrs. from certain individuals who appeared to be avoidant and impersonal to the point of cruelty. Individuals for whom we cared deeply and loved as people. Even whilst my spiritual awareness clearly apprehends they were and are good and decent individuals at heart -- some of whom were earnestly trying to work through their stuff.

There is a cold, impersonal, utilitarian aspect to this philosophy, as Jeff has mentioned, and so it would be nearly impossible to hold to non-being and still view others as fully human. To say interaction with folks who hold or held to "everyone is no one" was heartbreaking at various times is a simple truth. Who do you think you are, and who cares what you think or feel...(particularly what you feel)? It's all transitory and meaningless anyway. It's that sort of thing. You know they're hurting but it's very difficult to truly reach or to connect deeply with anyone who cannot see your humanity. Plus, it's quite hurtful and as Jeff notes, they often simply mock you for caring or expecting simple kindness...or for being gobsmacked or hurt by their extreme apathy or cruelty words or deeds. My father was a master at this but we've all known others.

Many folks' personal traumas of one kind or another, often family-related but sometimes also involving borderline, narcissistic, &/or addicted ex-partners, have made them easy prey for a philosophy which appeared to point the way to transcending the heart and any relentless pain and suffering by cutting out or papering over the heart chakra altogether. By displaying either hostility and fear & loathing toward the heart or toward emotion (theirs or others)...or else by being coldly cruel or seemingly impersonal or apathetic, regarding deeper connections or even regarding simple, authentic kindness and engagement. Or all of the above, variously.

Stepping back, one can see that these folks are hurting, as you say. And of course, only love can overcome hate/fear/loathing, not more of the same. So the tragedy for they themselves is that a deeper awakening cannot progress or come to be, without an integrated heart-led consciousness...even aside from the pain they cause to those who love and care for them. Nor can many there fully benefit from the love that other give.

The non-being and belief in an impersonal reality is a cruel post-modern trick of sorts which in fact provided more misdirection than anything else. It provided a false answer to their pain, a deception. In lieu of a solid and loving way forward in truth. It will have pointed them toward the same odd path as the narcissist and the addict...where no one else matters because everything and everyone is illusory...except the unavoidable reality of pain (avoid) and pleasure (seek or avoid, your choosing).

Of course, this is a false paradigm. What is true? Interbeing? Existence and eternal consciousness, in all their infinite variation and splendour? OR that I am a universe of one and you don't exist? Because no one and nothing truly exists...as we are each trapped or housed in a false, temporal, illusory material reality (often controlled by an evil overlord called Source)? LOL...sorry couldn't resist. What is even the point of denying our ultimate being? Whether temporal or otherwise?

Many would and do choose to believe in a false reality and in non-being generally because it allows them to numb their pain with the belief in non-being. Because it (belief in non-being) allows them to dehumanise themselves and others, in order to numb the pain.

Even more tragically, belief in non-being encourages them not to take responsibility for their own spiritual journey, in all its wonder. Who cares if they do misaligned or "bad" stuff to themselves or others, if none of it is "real", eh? It turns them away from their humanity and from spirit...all of which are centred in the awakened or illuminated heart. Where mind is in service to heart, not leading it into a pit of emptiness or into the void.

They will find their way back, no doubt, as we all do. Some now, some soon, some in this lifetime, and some not for many lifetimes still. But it is a cruel misdirection nonetheless, on all counts. It's time that could have been simply spent in joy and right-alignment, being authentic and kind, and treating others with simple dignity and familial love and/or friendship.

C'est la vie, but that's alright. Good thing is, nothing stays the same forever and fundamental change and growth is always possible. I always try to leave a space for a new page to be written. Authentic love and forgiveness/true acceptance are true, they are freeing and expansive, and they are healing. I'm even making some real progress with my dad, as he's got a bit older but mainly since he's been sick...which is still saying something. The key is being open to where he is now, whilst keep awareness of dignity and boundaries as needed. It's only taken his entire lifetime and mine to date

Peace & blessings
7L

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by God-Like

What Am I . Well the realization itself doesn't flash anything up like I am this or that, there is only being what you are . I think your smart enough not to associate a name for that which we are .

Hmmm, "only being what YOU are". Why can't you say: Only being what I am. Are you really so AFRAID of the word 'I'? It won't BITE YOU! LOL, I am "smart enough" to know that I need not FEAR saying, "I am that" or "I am Noting" or "I just am" or............... They are only words and I am not ASHAMED to use any of them. Are you smart enough to just say what is true for you? Don't let fear and shame hold you down.

You can from a mind perspective start to evaluate what is that which is being and attribute qualities like consciousness and awareness and spirit and whatnot if you like, but I don't .

OK, if you don't then lets just drop that subject.

What you are is what you are . What you are is aware of experiencing the mind of duality .

Cool, and what is "that" that you are? And why are you still afraid to say what is true for you. How about = "What I am is what I am". "What I am is aware of..........." What are YOU?
Honestly, I'd respect you and what you say a lot more if you had the courage to speak for and about your self rather then about me and others. Are you really so ashamed of your self?

The void or nothingness for some relates to the mind still, the realization or being what you are without a thought of it is beyond the mind of duality .

And for some, the void or nothingness relates to what's real or eternal (empty phenomena) which is beyond and also is the so-called "mind". All that there is, is the empty phenomena or Nothingness!

When you ask me to say what is real or true in my eyes you do know you are making a dual suggestion that implies I am someone that has a belief in what is true or real .

I honestly do not care at all about what you "believe". I am interested in what you can or will say about your own, direct experiences rather than these lectures and speeches from you. I asked you to say what is real and true FOR YOU - personally.

You see this is where the non-dualist fall down because if you really thought no-one was here, then one wouldn't ask the question to another .

You are twisting both my words and the concept or teachings about no-one is here (Advaita). No separate, individual is here - there's just one or not-two, but, in the interests of communicating, I bow to the temporary notion that some egos are present, asking questions and talking with each other. There is only ONE thing here and that one thing is appearing in the forms of jim and daz to apparently have an apparent talk about NOTHING significant or important - just for the fun of it. The Absolute is here, having fun in and as jim and daz apparently discussing something. That's how I see it, for now.

There is no other in the eyes of the non dualist .

That's true. There is no separate, independent 'me' here and no separate, independent 'me' there - just This or Life appearing as two egos discussing things just for the fun of it.

This is where living the perceived reality of non duality crumbles beneath one's non existent feet .

LOL, if you say so. My feet do exist There is no 'me' here or anywhere but, so long as we (the Absolute) are talking together, let's use two 'mes' for the time being. the Absolute is having a ball appearing as two apparent 'me's playing at life.

I understand that you don't want to share realizations on a public forums but you see you asked that of me to share ..

LOL, I guess you forgot that you mentioned my "realizations" in this post: "I haven't heard any of your realizations other than your love for the non dualists that write books to the non existent masses . I have asked you how have you concluded that there is no-one here in a thread .. have you answered?"

Then i responded with:

I could write a few pages about my "realizations" or "awakenings" and then others would rip them to shreds with either jealous hatred or fearful contempt so, if you want to read about or COMPARE realization stories, PM me or email me and we can tell stories out in a safe and respectful place.

I am waiting for a PM or email from you on this "realiazation" matter..............

I honestly do not care at all about your "realizations" or mine. I found out long ago that the experiences or attainments of others can be a block in my path growth so it's best that I do NOT know about your "realizations" for now.

What investigation have you undertaken in regards to there not being anyone here?

I am satisfied that there is no separate self or 'me' here by studying the work of: Tony Parsons, Jim Newman, John Wheeler, Kenneth Madden, Richard Sylvester, Lisa Cairns, Mooji, Nisargadatta, Ramana Maharshi, Natalie Gray, Robert Wolfe, Charlie Hayes and a huge array of non-dualist spokespersons and teachers but the guy who helped me just HAPPILY be here and now was and is John Wheeler who showed me that This is it and I am already it or there or good enough JUST AS I AM - without: practices, methods, systems, teachings, leaders, books, videos, ashrams, gurus, forums, etc. I am no longer WAITING AROUND to eventually "wake up", become something or get anything. This is it! I just am - and it's OK. Most of the "teachings" and methods encourage the ego or 'me' to go on and on FOREVER as a separate, limited and finite object, which is just fine so long as you like that kind of temporary, unsatisfactory life - most folks do. John Wheeler, Rupert Spira and Tony Parsons make it clear that there is NO separate, personal ego anywhere and that you are totally free right here and now - always were and always will be. I am no longer a Seeker or a student of some awakened guru. I just am and it's terrific! No more waiting around to be "saved", enlightened, woke up, fixed, corrected, taken to heaven, saved from hell, accomplish this or that, become this or that, get this or that, avoid this or that, do this or that.........I just am and it's good enough! Whatever I am or feel, in this very moment IS IT!
Now all of you Trolls can jump in here and TRASH what I just wrote!

I mean seriously, there has to be a sense of what you are that is here in order to investigate .

speak for your self!

The ego searches, the ego investigates . The ego is the sense of I am .

No it isn't. I am allows for the sense of an ego. The apparent ego exists within I am but the ego has no independent life of it's own because it does not even exist. It's a Paradox!
Your comments and points of view will have much more credence if you talk about what you personally know and understand so use 'I" more and 'you' less to be taken seriously. Giving lectures and speeches is a bore, IMO. Just say what is true for and about YOUR SELF by using 'I' statements mostly.
jim

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Jim, thanks for your kind response. I suppose I meant that I and others I know, both, have got some very confusing and odd feedback over the yrs. from certain individuals who appeared to be avoidant and impersonal to the point of cruelty.

Yes, parents can be like that! Well, my dad was like that, anyway.

Individuals for whom we cared deeply and loved as people. Even whilst my spiritual awareness clearly apprehends they were and are good and decent individuals at heart -- some of whom were earnestly trying to work through their stuff.

Yep, that describes my parents, me and my 1st wife.

There is a cold, impersonal, utilitarian aspect to this philosophy, as Jeff has mentioned, and so it would be nearly impossible to hold to non-being and still view others as fully human.

IMO, the philosophy is not wrong but an emotionally damaged person can and will use the philosophy in destructive ways. A sick ego is compelled to misuse EVERYTHING!

To say interaction with folks who hold or held to "everyone is no one" was heartbreaking at various times is a simple truth. Who do you think you are, and who cares what you think or feel...(particularly what you feel)?

In psychotherapy, I was shown over and over how "Hurt people, hurt people!" since the damaged ego lives mostly behind a huge array of ego-defenses as represented in Jeff's story about "B" [http://www.lifewithoutacentre.com/wr...one-act-play/] who hurts "A" again and again until A" finally walks away from the abuse. "B" never gets it that his ego defenses are ruining their friendship.

It's all transitory and meaningless anyway.

Yes, from the Absolute perspective but from "A"s perspective - I HURTS A LOT!

It's that sort of thing. You know they're hurting but it's very difficult to truly reach or to connect deeply with anyone who cannot see your humanity.

What "B" has lost touch with is his OWN HUMANITY. A Shame-based, [google it] damaged person is incapable of FEELING or seeing their own "humanity" or that of anybody else, as was seen by the Nazi atrocities during WWII. Alice Miller [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_...psychologist)] describes how the Nazis were dehumanized in childhood with Toxic Shame [google it] and then grew up to become monsters just like Hitler.

Plus, it's quite hurtful and as Jeff notes, they often simply mock you for caring or expecting simple kindness...or for being gobsmacked or hurt by their extreme apathy or cruelty words or deeds. My father was a master at this but we've all known others.

That is the horror of Shame-based conditioning where the victim (B) of Toxic Shame is deprived of any empathy or love for others or them self and MUST use whatever ego defense they can (mocking) to stay on top and out of pain or remorse while hurting their victims. My dad was the master of mental and physical CRUELTY! And his spineless wife (our mother) never said a word!

Many folks' personal traumas of one kind or another, often family-related but sometimes also involving borderline, narcissistic, &/or addicted ex-partners, have made them easy prey for a philosophy which appeared to point the way to transcending the heart and any relentless pain and suffering by cutting out or papering over the heart chakra altogether. By displaying either hostility and fear & loathing toward the heart or toward emotion (theirs or others)...or else by being coldly cruel or seemingly impersonal or apathetic, regarding deeper connections or even regarding simple, authentic kindness and engagement. Or all of the above, variously.

We can see this kind of insane fanaticism in suicide bombers and terrorist willing to do anything for their "faith". I'd say that all personal/emotions trauma is family related and that will worsen any genetic or natural emotional flaws or disorders in an affected child who then grows up to be a problem for society. I am not sure it there are a lot of Advaitans who've become insane fanatics but it could happen to any emotionally damaged person, IMO.

Stepping back, one can see that these folks are hurting, as you say. And of course, only love can overcome hate/fear/loathing, not more of the same. So the tragedy for they themselves is that a deeper awakening cannot progress or come to be, without an integrated heart-led consciousness...even aside from the pain they cause to those who love and care for them.

Some say that "awakening" is not possible so long as someone (like I was) is struggling with deep and painful trauma so the ego needs to be repaired BEFORE a Survivor of early trauma can move on to higher consciousness and selflessness. My experience was that, although introduced to non-duality in my late teens, I finally had to stop and turn to psychotherapy to FIX my damage ego. It isn't completely fixed yet but good enough for now, LOL.

The non-being and belief in an impersonal reality is a cruel post-modern trick of sorts which in fact provided more misdirection than anything else. It provided a false answer to their pain, a deception. In lieu of a solid and loving way forward in truth. It will have pointed them toward the same odd path as the narcissist and the addict...where no one else matters because everything and everyone is illusory...except the unavoidable reality of pain (avoid) and pleasure (seek or avoid, your choosing).

That is the crisis of the Shame-based, damage ego or self which can and does distort everything to fit into it's needs for safety, control and SURVIVAL. I was and maybe still am a lot like "B", thanks to a very damaged, defensive ego/self, who's whole existence revolved around SAFETY and SECURITY.

Of course, this is a false paradigm. What is true? Interbeing? Existence and eternal consciousness, in all their infinite variation and splendour? OR that I am a universe of one and you don't exist? Because no one and nothing truly exists...as we are each trapped or housed in a false, temporal, illusory material reality (often controlled by an evil overlord called Source)? LOL...sorry couldn't resist. What is even the point of denying our ultimate being? Whether temporal or otherwise?

All concepts and teachings can and will be misunderstood and misused by a damaged, defensive and SHMED ego. We can see it all around us - road rage, shootings, murder, bombings, rape, white collar criminals, insane cops, cheaters, liars, arsonists, two-faced preachers and gurus and on and on. It's all Toxic Shame in action! LOL, or perhaps it's just Divinity playing a strange game with itself?

Many would and do choose to believe in a false reality and in non-being generally because it allows them to numb their pain with the belief in non-being. Because it (belief in non-being) allows them to dehumanise themselves and others, in order to numb the pain.

Non-being is a distortion of a truth or fact that the damaged ego has to make up. Non-being is about the non-existence of a separate, independent being or self. There is only ONE self or being - not two - not a self plus an ego. But the limited ego can't see that truth so it comes up with the idea that there is "non-being" or "no-self". In a way, it comes down to a game of semantics which the ego hopes to win.

They will find their way back, no doubt, as we all do. Some now, some soon, some in this lifetime, and some not for many lifetimes still. But it is a cruel misdirection nonetheless, on all counts. It's time that could have been simply spent in joy and right-alignment, being kind and courteous and treating others with simple dignity and familial love and/or friendship.

Finding the way back is one of the goals of therapy along with spirituality so, to each his own. I started out with spirituality (What am I?) but eventually had to turn around to therapy. I certainly wish that my life had been better and happier from day one BUT I picked the wrong set of parents! Fortunately, I am now finding teachings and pointers that help me feel a little better about life and just being OK - as I am - right now.

C'est la vie, but that's alright. Good thing is, nothing stays the same forever and fundamental change and growth is always possible. I always try to leave a space for a new page to be written. Authentic love and forgiveness/true acceptance are true, they are freeing and expansive, and they are healing. I'm even making some real progress with my dad, as he's got a bit older but mainly since he's been sick...which is still saying something. The key is being open to where he is now, whilst keep awareness of dignity and boundaries as needed. It's only taken his entire lifetime and mine to date

Both my parents died completely consumed by the Toxic Shame their parents gave them so I never had a chance to work anything out with them on this side of life. It's very sad for me to know that we could have had a much happier life IF ONLY they had ever woken up to the family related ugliness that had consumed them but, self awareness and introspection was TABOO back then so folks just did what they knew to do and NEVER questioned it. My sibling are both LOST in family beliefs and behaviors but they are happy so who am I to say that they need this or that.
My current attitude is: What will be, will be! The Absolute or "empty phenomenon" is running the show and I am currently satisfied that it knows what it's doing in it's tailor made Play of Life. This is it - and it's OK. If I was god or the Source, I'd probably leave all of this just as it is - the good and the bad, the ugly and pretty, right and wrong, pain and pleasure, hurt and healing, etc. WHAT A SHOW!

Peace & blessings
jim

[no1wakesup]

Even to define non duality conceptually, within the duality of this existence, leaves you with the opposite, which is no existence or reality at all. Its a question from a mind seeking an answer where no known experienced or reality is available to directly draw from. So its not a convenient or safe for maintaing what really wants to continue. You can't go into maintaining your individual fortitude because there is nothing in place to support it. There are no ceilings, walls or floors. If there is nothing to hold onto then there must be no one there needing to grasp at anything. The mind, in a grasping reality, seeks spiritually or otherwise, to secretly maintain its own sense of self. Ultimately, that's not what happems.

We are just fkng with a notion of it here. Better for the mind to do this for ****s and giggles then to   see this as serious. One would provide provocative entertainment and self serving purpose (to become enlightened) while the ladder would produce deeper anxiety, depression and other mental disorders.

It's not a club you join. There are no members

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by no1wakesup

Even to define non duality conceptually, within the duality of this existence, leaves you with the opposite, which is no existence or reality at all.

The separate self or apparent entity sees and feels it that way and so the ego becomes either fighting mad or hopelessly depressed because this "no existence or reality at all" is extremely threatening to an apparent entity that wants to go on and on forever as an apparent entity, ego or separate self. It's happening right here at this forum! All the ego hears is, "Your days are OVER!" so then it comes out FIGHTING.

Its a question from a mind seeking an answer where no known experienced or reality is available to directly draw from.

I say that there is a known experienced reality to directly draw from and Rupert Spira demonstrates it as "self inquiry" in his videos [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVdsVwiRTvI BUT, just as in the video, the Separate Self or ego, fights it and wants to ignore the amazing fact that there is NO Separate Self to stay on as the Separate Self NO MATTER WHAT! The ego simply ignores any "known experienced reality" (such as who am I?) and the "answers" it offers and pretends that it's own apparent existence is unquestionably true or real.

So its not a convenient or safe for maintaing what really wants to continue.

There's the answer - the ego wants to continue. The ego is not about to give up and die just because the mind is looking for the truth. In the video, the Seeker realizes that there is NO Separate Self BUT continues to argue for it's EXISTENCE!

You can't go into maintaining your individual fortitude because there is nothing in place to support it.

It/you don't even exist so nothing could support it other than one's imagination.

There are no ceilings, walls or floors.

Yes there are but there is no Separate Self present to occupy or touch them.

If there is nothing to hold onto then there must be no one there needing to grasp at anything.

There is plenty to hold on to just no Separate Self who could grasp anything. You are there, just not the imagined, false, non-existing Separate Self!

The mind, in a grasping reality, seeks spiritually or otherwise, to secretly maintain its own sense of self. Ultimately, that's not what happems.

It isn't the "mind" that seeks. It's the Separate Self that seeks to maintain its own sense of 'me' but it cannot do it because it isn't even there. It's a Paradox but, when seen in Rupert's video, it's absolutely obvious - there is NO Separate Self/ego/'me'.

We are just fkng with a notion of it here.

Playing with "notions" is how the Separate Self is maintained - it loves "word games" as Rupert's video shows.

Better for the mind to do this for ****s and giggles then to   see this as serious.

Sorry that much of your comment is messed up but, it's only serious to the frightened Separate Self as the video demonstrates. The moment the question: Who/what is this 'I'?, arises, it gets SERIOUS.

One would provide provocative entertainment and self serving purpose (to become enlightened) while the ladder would produce deeper anxiety, depression and other mental disorders.

Not sure what any of that means, but only the ego or Separate Self can ever experience anxiety, depression and mental disorders - not the underlying Awareness or True Self.

It's not a club you join. There are no members

You can join any club you like - it's all you and there are plenty of members - they're all you - just you - the infinite Reality or whatever you call your self these days. I like the Buddhist term: "empty phenomenon (singular) or phenomena (plural)" which comes back to Nothing or Nothingness. LOL, semantics can turn one inside out. It's a Paradox!

[shiningstars]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Yes thats the golden ticket or the light that blinds the non dualists . I am nothing, I am no-one blah, blah, blah is self identifying .

One is simply swapping someone for no-one

If they really believed there is no-one here then they would not support the dream / illusory self .

They wouldn't hesitate to not eat, they would not hesitate to walk off a cliff .

The reason why they preserve life as they know it is because they believe on some level that they are someone that is in experience .

If I didn't believe truly that you were here I wouldn't sit here writing you a post .

Thanks for Jyotir's post link . I have known him for a while now and I resonate with much of what he says .



x daz x

Welcome, I like his posts, seems like a good guy, excellent spiritual insights.

I suspect the "Neo-Advaita" group [if this is what they are called] utilize this method like a cult - only believers need apply - well it's sure easier than doing the real work, but what honest fulfillment is that?

Arguing to the ego death whilst proclaiming no-one is there - such an empty, hollow offering to those around them.

In the famous words of the current President, sad!

shiningstars

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by jimrich

Hmmm, "only being what YOU are". Why can't you say: Only being what I am. Are you really so AFRAID of the word 'I'? It won't BITE YOU! LOL, I am "smart enough" to know that I need not FEAR saying, "I am that" or "I am Noting" or "I just am" or............... They are only words and I am not ASHAMED to use any of them. Are you smart enough to just say what is true for you? Don't let fear and shame hold you down.


OK, if you don't then lets just drop that subject.


Cool, and what is "that" that you are? And why are you still afraid to say what is true for you. How about = "What I am is what I am". "What I am is aware of..........." What are YOU?
Honestly, I'd respect you and what you say a lot more if you had the courage to speak for and about your self rather then about me and others. Are you really so ashamed of your self?


And for some, the void or nothingness relates to what's real or eternal (empty phenomena) which is beyond and also is the so-called "mind". All that there is, is the empty phenomena or Nothingness!


I honestly do not care at all about what you "believe". I am interested in what you can or will say about your own, direct experiences rather than these lectures and speeches from you. I asked you to say what is real and true FOR YOU - personally.


You are twisting both my words and the concept or teachings about no-one is here (Advaita). No separate, individual is here - there's just one or not-two, but, in the interests of communicating, I bow to the temporary notion that some egos are present, asking questions and talking with each other. There is only ONE thing here and that one thing is appearing in the forms of jim and daz to apparently have an apparent talk about NOTHING significant or important - just for the fun of it. The Absolute is here, having fun in and as jim and daz apparently discussing something. That's how I see it, for now.


That's true. There is no separate, independent 'me' here and no separate, independent 'me' there - just This or Life appearing as two egos discussing things just for the fun of it.


LOL, if you say so. My feet do exist There is no 'me' here or anywhere but, so long as we (the Absolute) are talking together, let's use two 'mes' for the time being. the Absolute is having a ball appearing as two apparent 'me's playing at life.


LOL, I guess you forgot that you mentioned my "realizations" in this post: "I haven't heard any of your realizations other than your love for the non dualists that write books to the non existent masses . I have asked you how have you concluded that there is no-one here in a thread .. have you answered?"

Then i responded with:

I am waiting for a PM or email from you on this "realiazation" matter..............

I honestly do not care at all about your "realizations" or mine. I found out long ago that the experiences or attainments of others can be a block in my path growth so it's best that I do NOT know about your "realizations" for now.


I am satisfied that there is no separate self or 'me' here by studying the work of: Tony Parsons, Jim Newman, John Wheeler, Kenneth Madden, Richard Sylvester, Lisa Cairns, Mooji, Nisargadatta, Ramana Maharshi, Natalie Gray, Robert Wolfe, Charlie Hayes and a huge array of non-dualist spokespersons and teachers but the guy who helped me just HAPPILY be here and now was and is John Wheeler who showed me that This is it and I am already it or there or good enough JUST AS I AM - without: practices, methods, systems, teachings, leaders, books, videos, ashrams, gurus, forums, etc. I am no longer WAITING AROUND to eventually "wake up", become something or get anything. This is it! I just am - and it's OK. Most of the "teachings" and methods encourage the ego or 'me' to go on and on FOREVER as a separate, limited and finite object, which is just fine so long as you like that kind of temporary, unsatisfactory life - most folks do. John Wheeler, Rupert Spira and Tony Parsons make it clear that there is NO separate, personal ego anywhere and that you are totally free right here and now - always were and always will be. I am no longer a Seeker or a student of some awakened guru. I just am and it's terrific! No more waiting around to be "saved", enlightened, woke up, fixed, corrected, taken to heaven, saved from hell, accomplish this or that, become this or that, get this or that, avoid this or that, do this or that.........I just am and it's good enough! Whatever I am or feel, in this very moment IS IT!
Now all of you Trolls can jump in here and TRASH what I just wrote!

speak for your self!

No it isn't. I am allows for the sense of an ego. The apparent ego exists within I am but the ego has no independent life of it's own because it does not even exist. It's a Paradox!
Your comments and points of view will have much more credence if you talk about what you personally know and understand so use 'I" more and 'you' less to be taken seriously. Giving lectures and speeches is a bore, IMO. Just say what is true for and about YOUR SELF by using 'I' statements mostly.
jim

You reckon I am afraid of saying 'I' because I mentioned the 'you' word lol . That's kinda crazy to conclude that by what I said . My opening sentence started with what am 'I' . It's a figure of speech, don't take it too personally (excuse the pun) .

I am not afraid also to say what I am or what you are . It's just futile to suggest what it is that you are as an absolute when the realization of Self doesn't pertain to any thought of what that is .

I have put it before to those that say they are pure awareness or super duper consciousness 'have you realized that is what you are' have you realized what consciousness is, and there is no answer from them . The reason being is that all these Self references are after thoughts / post realization .

So you can potentially have many forum members arguing over what consciousness is, when no-one has realized that it's just a made up thought pertaining to what you are .

What I will debate however is being aware of what you are of the mind and the differences between that and no mindful awareness of self .

This is the aspect that the non-dualist seem to know very little about .

The void or nothingness or the emptiness can be different for some and it will depend on if there is a thought of 'I' experiencing nothingness or not .

There is either awareness of self or not, there is for myself no need to debate the word usage in that respect .

When you say you don't care what I believe well what I believe per se, stems from my direct experiences over a 26 year period of self enquiry / meditation / realiations .

Everything that I say stems from the realization or the being of what I am or what is beyond I am . (Are we clear now) .

In regards to your thoughts of no-one here, you speak of no doer, you speak of things just happening, you have said there is no-one here . The separateness or the oneness I have already explained in that oneness is just another concept of the mind . There is more to the non dualists than not believing in separation . There is a belief that no-one is here that is either one or separated from what they are .

If you wanted to simply discuss individuality being part of a collective or in essence being the same from a certain perspective then I would of entertained such notions . The bog standard snowflake analogy would of put to bed one's individuality as being unique but also the same as everything that is snow . The unique wave of jeffness, the unique wave that is 'I' that is all part of the same ocean, butt your expression goes way beyond simply that .

When you speak of there is no you, you are separating that which you are that is an expression of that . You are an advocate of oneness but you believe in separating and dividing . This is what I said before about the unified Self . You can't separate the weeds from the roses and that is what you are doing . You are renouncing aspects of Self when Self is all there is .
This is why non-dualist are blinded by what they renounce . Embrace the wave as the ocean, don't brush aside your very own unique expression as the wave .

In regards to p.m's and expalaining my 26 years of experiences, I think I'll take a rain check thanks, just take what I say with a pinch of salt or not . I think it's fair play to ask the question of where one's understandings come from but like I said I don't see other posters speaking openly about their Self realizations in reflection of every post made . Most can see where another is coming from if they have realized the same thing . You just have to pay attention to what they say, as if the walk their talk or not . This is the problem I see with certain hardcore non dualists . They say no-one is here and yet they carry on as if there is . If you truly believe there is no-one here then they would behave as if there isn't but they don't . It's a dead giveaway .

Your investigation into what others say be it 'Tony Parsons, Jim Newman, John Wheeler, Kenneth Madden, Richard Sylvester, Lisa Cairns, Mooji, Nisargadatta, Ramana Maharshi, Natalie Gray, Robert Wolfe, Charlie Hayes' is just like breathing in second hand smoke . I haven't studied anyone . I have gone by what I have realized . I like what snippets I have heard from ramana that are quotes here and there posted on the internet and most would agree that there is only what I am or you are for they are the same .

What becomes apparent though is post realization there are many understandings of what the realization is or means to the individual . What is also apparent is that there are many views had that can only be experienced by what we are that is present, whether that is a unique wave or snowflake it matters not .

It is happening, but what is happening in your unique experience isn't necessarily happening in mine .

When you say speak for myself when I said 'there has to be a sense of what you are that is here in order to investigate' well you just nailed it on the head by saying that .

It proves my point exactly .


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by shiningstars

Welcome, I like his posts, seems like a good guy, excellent spiritual insights.

I suspect the "Neo-Advaita" group [if this is what they are called] utilize this method like a cult - only believers need apply - well it's sure easier than doing the real work, but what honest fulfillment is that?

Arguing to the ego death whilst proclaiming no-one is there - such an empty, hollow offering to those around them.

In the famous words of the current President, sad!

shiningstars

It is kinda bonkers

I have recently had a chat with a hardcore non dualist and he makes jim look like a puppy dog .

He would say exactly the same things as jim almost word for word, just like the flat earther's and the jehovah's it's like they are all reading from the same script .

If they don't live by example in reflection of their beliefs then all they have is their beliefs .


x daz x

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by God-Like

just take what I say with a pinch of salt or not

OK.

"I'll allow you the last word" ~ awareness