Forgiveness

[ArcticWolf]

Originally Posted by Starman

forgiving a person does not mean you allow the violations of that person to continue.

In the spirit, we are clearly on the same page, but I don't understand this wording. So, please note that I am commenting on the wording you are using, not the spirit of what you are saying:

To me, this wording sounds like Orwellian double-speak, "forgive but not forgive". Forgiveness means restoration. If we are not restoring the relationship, then why should we even talk about forgiveness?

I think in the West, because of the Christian past, unforgiveness has become something of a taboo, a forbidden word and people are taught to use all kinds of creative expression to dance around the rather obvious fact that sometimes, forgiving is not good and we shouldn't not forgive everything.

[A human Being]

Originally Posted by ArcticWolf

Forgiveness means restoration.

That's not what it means to me. As I say, to me the meaning of forgiveness is that you let go of the feelings of negativity - anger, resentment, hatred, etc. - you feel towards a person for something they said or did (and when I googled 'definition of forgiveness', the first result that came up, from Oxford Languages, was 'stop feeling angry or resentful towards (someone) for an offence, flaw, or mistake'). It doesn't mean that you give the person the green light to continue their injurious behaviour, or that you even have to continue to have a relationship with them.

'Resentment is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die' - Nelson Mandela

[Joe Mc]

Interesting thread. I agree with Starman's views on the subject but also want to add something about wisdom.
Isn't it the case that someone whom you think needs to be forgiven has painted themselves 10 feet tall, impregnable,
just, cruel or whatever the traits in their personality which have hurt you ? Doesn't Wisdom allow us to see that the person
who has consumed us in some way is just 'Another Brick in the Wall' to look at it negatively or just another part of an infinite
unfolding canvas 'Life and the Universe' Doesn't this type of wisdom allow us to forgive ? Or am I cheating here lol..
have i stumbled upon 'A Cheat' wouldn't surprise me...is this just bitterness. lol...hmmm

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[ArcticWolf]

Originally Posted by A human Being

That's not what it means to me. As I say, to me the meaning of forgiveness is that you let go of the feelings of negativity - anger, resentment, hatred, etc. - you feel towards a person for something they said or did (and when I googled 'definition of forgiveness', the first result that came up, from Oxford Languages, was 'stop feeling angry or resentful towards (someone) for an offence, flaw, or mistake'). It doesn't mean that you give the person the green light to continue their injurious behaviour, or that you even have to continue to have a relationship with them.

Well I was being overly simplistic, what I actually think is that there are degrees of forgiveness. I'll list them below. In this sense, full forgiveness indeed means giving the other person a chance to offend you again. It's the lesser degrees of forgiveness that deny this possibility.

My idea for degrees of forgiveness:

1) Rejecting the desire to hold a collective grudge against everyone who reminds me of that person. The classic example being men who hate women, or women who hate men.

2) Rejection of the desire to hold an extended grudge: Choosing to not hold someone's friends/supporters responsible for what the offending party did.

3) Rejecting active seeking of revenge.

4) Rejecting passive waiting for an opportunity to get back to them.

5) Rejecting the relationship with the person, but no longer seeking revenge. A state of neutrality, rejecting both restoration and active grudge.

6) Partial restoration: "We can still be friends, but I can't anymore trust you like I did before".

7) Conditional restoration: As if it never happened, but on the condition that it will not happen again.

8) Full restoration, return to the state of innocent trust. In this state, if the other person makes another offense, it will be treated as if it's the first time.

Anything short of step 8 is, in my books, not full forgiveness. And that's okay. It's not always good or desirable. Why should it be?

Since we are posting quotes, I will also make up one:
"Never overstate how holy or virtuous you strive to be. Only preach what you truly practice, never more. If you overstate it, you risk losing the virtue of authenticity."
- Me.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by ArcticWolf

To me, this wording sounds like Orwellian double-speak, "forgive but not forgive".

You separate the person from their behavior as we do with children. I love you but I don’t like what you did.
You do not withdraw your love from the person, that’s forgiveness, but you do let the person know about
corrections they can make in their behavior.

There are people who will tell someone that they forgive them when they have not really forgiven them,
and those people usually practice what has been come to be known as passive-aggressive behavior.
Forgiving someone is about their behavior and your behavior.

It starts with how you feel and think about that person and what they did to warrant your forgiveness.
While you don’t like a person’s behavior you do not demonize the person. ArcticWolf, its’ like you
separated the spirit of what I wrote from the wording I used to write it.

When I feel like another person has offended me. I ask myself how much of this do I own and how much
of it is not about me. I will own my part in it and ask the other person for an apology for their part. If that
person refuses to apologize, then that is where forgiveness comes in for my sake, which means I do not
demonize the person even though I am disappointed in their behavior. Separating the person from their
behavior is a Humanistic Psychological approach.

[tommylama]

We live in an illusion of separateness. It is like living as a reflection in a mirror. To get out of the mirror we must shatter our perception, which translates to destruction of our separated self awareness. Love is the key to this process. When we open our hearts to all beings and recognize everyone and everything as being a unique and integral part of a divine tapestry -- a tapestry which would be incomplete without every single person and thing -- we invite our soul, or our inner divine nature, to take over the reins of our bodies. Our physical body becomes a tool for love and service to others. Our astral body becomes completely calm and sensitive to the pain which others are experiencing. Our mental body, under the control of our soul, becomes a tool for searching through the cosmic libraries of information. When our separated self controls the mental body, it is only capable of deduction and inference and working things out logically to reach conclusions about nature and life. When the soul is in charge, the mental body is more of a searchlight which can find any information about anything, any time, anywhere. This is the intuition – automatic and immediate knowledge of all things.

All of these things will come to pass, the only question is how long it will take. Each of us can speed up the process by first recognizing that a materialistic, self-centered life can only generate suffering. There is no satisfaction to be found in a separated existence. You will always sense that something is missing, and you will be right because your existence will be no more than a reflection of something much greater and out of your reach. Once you recognize that you exist in the Great Illusion, you must realize that the only way out of such an existence is to shatter the belief that you are a separate individual. Focus your energy and attention away from your separated self by becoming immersed in the various groups to which you belong – family, community, state, country, planet, cosmos. Understand that the more inclusive you can become in terms of self-identity, the further you will advance on the Path which leads to liberation. So focusing on planetary issues, as if they were the most important issues to solve, will take you further than focusing on family issues. But family focus is a good start. Anything which removes your attention away from your self as the center of the universe is a step in the right direction.

This kind of shifting of self-identity is the most difficult task imaginable. The separated self has ruled over your being for untold lifetimes and will fight you every step of the way. Perseverance and one-pointed focus will be needed. As you battle, your soul will recognize your effort and will lend a hand on occasion, but until you demonstrate your determination and proper motive, you will be on your own. But if we were all working towards the same goal together, there would be strength and support in our numbers.

Our life in the mirror has no value other than as a proving-ground where we learn the lessons which will free us from its prison. Life outside of the mirror is what we should aspire to, and that can only happen through a violent and permanent shattering of the world view which has imprisoned us. To shatter this world view will go against all of our existing beliefs. That is why there are so many paradoxes in our spiritual journey. The bridge between two mutually exclusive worlds must be paradoxical. Or in other words, the bridge must be built with ideas which are completely unexpected and go against the grain of the world we are trying to escape from. We must die to gain eternal life. It doesn’t get more paradoxical than that. But the lesson becomes clear when we consider that in the true reality, outside of the mirror, the consciousness being experienced is a collective consciousness. It is like herd-awareness but with the powers which the human soul can express. To enjoy this collective type of awareness we must sacrifice our individual awareness.

Understanding the solution to the problem of escaping from the mirror requires only simple logic. Actually living the solution and experiencing the freedom and the escape are another matter entirely. But, together, with each of us lending a helping hand to our brothers and sisters, it becomes a project of love and beauty. At some point on the Path you will be required to forgive everyone for everything, or else you cling to a part of your separated self and you will never get out of the mirror. We are all divine. We have all made mistakes. We are all integral parts of a divine mosaic. Don’t look at one of the parts with disdain. Recognize that even though they hurt you in the past, they cannot hurt you in the future unless you hold on to your separated self image. It becomes a matter of trust and faith. You must trust that whatever happens to you, regardless of how it may appear, is really just a karmic balance which you have set in motion. And you must have faith that the powers that be will protect you and provide for you.

Believe it or not, unconditional forgiveness is easy. Trying to stay on course and persevere through whatever comes your way is the real test.

[lostsoul13]

I agree but you can’t forgive fire/ it’s burning is one by one—-
“Catch’s you’re eye!!!”
Be careful with forgiveness it’s such a unbounded, soul lifting act- selfless and compassionate- wipe your dirty hands of me’

[tommylama]

I’m so far out on this limb I might as well finish my thought before you burn me at the stake.

I am suggesting that there exists a Spiritual Kingdom inhabited by Angels and Archangels and Souls and Masters and Their Masters and Planetary Logoi, and Solar Logoi, and on and on to God Himself. That Heavenly world exists on the other side of a bridge which we must pass in order to enjoy the unity and the bliss and the balance and the harmony and the love which are the fundamental properties of that Spiritual Kingdom.

Evolution will carry us across this bridge eventually. But in the meantime, as we take microscopic steps forward to cross the bridge, we are subjected to the suffering and the miseries which are the fundamental properties of this Illusionary World.

There is a fast track across the bridge. It is the Way which Jesus showed us while He was here two thousand years ago. It is the crucifixion of the separated, illusionary self. The Illusionary World is no more than a testing ground where we prove that we are pure enough to withstand the heightened frequencies of the forces and energies in the Spiritual Kingdom. An impure human being would be shattered by the powerful forces of absolute love and absolute unity, so we must gradually alter our makeup on this journey across the bridge.

When you die, you don’t gain permanent access to the Spiritual Kingdom. You get a taste of it and then you get thrown back into the mirror world – back on the journey of microscopic steps forward which leads to the unavoidable Mt. Calvary which awaits us all. We all must be crucified to gain permanent access. We have to earn the right to join the ranks of Those on the other side.

Jesus and the other Masters wait patiently for our humanity to demonstrate a certain amount of love and unity before They will come over to our side of the bridge to aid us in our efforts. Until there is some measure of peace and sharing and equality, Their hands are tied by cosmic laws which prevent the interference of humanity’s expression of its free will.

How close are we as a humanity to meeting those requirements for Them to come to our aid? How close are we to peace and sharing and equality? The United States is the champion of democratic society in the world and we are on the brink of losing our democracy altogether. When equal voting rights cannot be protected, democracy cannot survive. There is no guarantee that this humanity will succeed. It is not unprecedented for civilizations to self-destruct. This planet will survive, but with the technology of destruction that exists today, this humanity could obliterate the progress of evolution and annihilate much of the life which exists. I can see a nuclear war between despotic, narcissistic, dictatorial, authoritarian, evil men which ends in absolute disaster. I’m pretty sure cockroaches would survive, but not much more. What a shame if we go down that road.

The irony is that we protect our right to have a separated self awareness. We have the right to not forgive others, and we have the right to build walls, and we have the right to pursue material satisfaction, and we have the right to hate others. These rights are all part of the tests which we are undergoing. Yes, we have those rights, but what value do they really have? True happiness and contentment does not come from material satisfaction. True happiness comes from loving others and sharing with others. The ultimate happiness and contentment will be experienced when we cross the bridge. Anything which interferes with our crossing is not worth protecting. Jesus said, “And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off and cast it from thee.” Getting out of this illusion is the task at hand, and it has been for untold lifetimes. Trying to do it alone is torture. Together it becomes a party.

Okay, you can burn me at the stake now. It probably won't be the first time. :)

[Altair]

Originally Posted by A human Being

To the people decrying the whole notion of forgiveness, let me ask you this question: What do feelings of anger, resentment, etc. FEEL like? If you had the choice, would you choose to have those feelings inside you?

We are the totality of what we are, physically, mentally, spiritually.
We are the calm and we are the storm..

Sometimes it is good to forgive, other times it is good to be angry. They are all sensations and part of our experience. Sometimes they can be ''in the way'', other times they may be embraced. Anger can be useful. A person's anger can be a motivation to improve a situation, to strive for something better, to undo the wrongs done. To have a lot of anger or for too long is probably not useful. How the anger is used is another thing and just as complex. It can also be good to embrace forgiveness. But when? And how?

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by ArcticWolf

sometimes, forgiving is not good and we shouldn't not forgive everything.

I think we should never forget for sure!