Will I say the same things again?

[Gem]

Originally Posted by sky123

Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra: teaches of a ' True self ' an unchanging essence which all sentient beings have, not all Schools agree on this so it must come down to the individual what this teaching means. To me personally it makes sense and is referring to ' Buddha Nature, my ' True Self ' which is unchanging.
'

Yes indeed, what they call a 'Buddha nature' is accepted in every school, so at least they agree on that! teehee. This adds even more nuance to 'annata' in the sense it regards a 'true nature' but no-identity, so refuge could be thought of as refuge in 'Buddha nature' (which is something like an enlightened quality, I guess). In some way, whatever it is, it's bigger than 'myself'

[sky]

Originally Posted by Gem

Yes indeed, what they call a 'Buddha nature' is accepted in every school, so at least they agree on that! teehee. This adds even more nuance to 'annata' in the sense it regards a 'true nature' but no-identity, so refuge could be thought of as refuge in 'Buddha nature' (which is something like an enlightened quality, I guess). In some way, whatever it is, it's bigger than 'myself'

No I don't think taking refuge has anything to do with Buddha Nature, but that's just my opinion. Speaking to Monks and Nuns that I know it's seen as refuge in Shakyamuni Buddha as a person and teacher, but as I had said before it depends on the School/Branch.
I'll post a Sutta when I remember the title you might enjoy it... Or not

[innerlight]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

I am not sure about soul stuff. I relate more from the holistic nature of myself. There are many parts to myself as I have learned. The totality of myself requires me to listen quite intricately and to the deepest most subtle aspects within me to allow the flow of anything outside of me to move through me.

Anything outside of myself becomes a reflection to become aware of myself through that. I use the term "through" because ultimately everything can either pass through and you become aware of yourself more complete as it does, or you can attach to the external teacher or thing, whatever it may be and lock into it. Everything in this way, becomes a point of recognition in some form of you aware of yourself and the other.


Jump away, what you sharing is very valid.

I said "soul" for a lack of a better term to describe the concept of the "Buddha state" of being. More in the sense of it's origin for the self. For if that is the goal of any aspirant, whether we call it the Buddha self, the Christened Self, the higher self, the inner guru, wherein lies the true teacher of the self? Does it arise externally, as in the one who shows the way to the that state, or does it always arise from within?



Perhaps it is that external teacher, whether it's life itself, someone who has lived the path before, its through that awareness of life itself, we find ourselves. I suppose any path has the possibility to eventually, hopefully, take a person to the same place within themselves. Unless, the path, teaches them external places is where to always be.



However any teaching, message, word, that is conveyed, whether it's verbal, or written, loses its true meaning. As it gets filtered twice. By the mind of the person conveying it, and of the mind of the person receiving it.

[innerlight]

Originally Posted by Gem

I think in a Buddhist context, the initial 'taking refuge in the Buddha' mostly pertains to a surrender to the enlightenment within, and it does not mean taking refuge in any person such as Gotama. The refuge in dhamma mainly means surrendering to nature's way, which in a sense means forgoing any 'way that is mine'. The more superficial meaning of dhamma is the teachings of Gotama as these are about nature's way, but are not nature's way itself. In this we we have a primary way of taking refuge in 'enlightenment' (whatever that means), and in the way the universe is. Under the Buddhist worldview, the universe is not so much an object named as a noun, but more like an activity described by a verb, so in effect, surrendering to this moment just as it is akin to refuge in dhamma. This is not how the texts state it, but because the written philosophy is not that to which it refers, it is only understood in the way an individual sees it, and it has no 'true meaning'. I discuss the subject by way of inner exploration and apply meaning to that written according to what I 'find out' in actuality, which I suggest is the way to understanding - and it would not be prudent to just adopt what Gem says. Gem has no 'true meanings' apart from those inner knowings, and all other people can only know what teachings mean through their own real lived discovery.


This leads directly to meditation, as meditation is basically the 'inner discovery' we call 'insight'.



Actually, what we think of as Buddhism as a school of textual knowledge is not particularly accurate, because 'Buddha' primarily means the quality of enlightenment. What you imply, or at least what I infer from what you said, is more in the spirit of Buddhism than the volumes of knowledge called 'teachings'. Indeed, the teachings have no meaning at all other than that applied from the 'inner Buddha', as you put it.

So when an aspirant is ready to take 'refuge' they are taking refuge into the Buddha self. They are taking refuge into the journey itself. Not into the school, or philosophy, or even who the teacher is, the true refuge comes form that surrender into the self? If I am to grasp the notion of what taking "refuge" means.

Refuge is taken in the triple gem.

The Buddha,
The Dhamma,
The Sangha.

What that means is googable.
https://www.thoughtco.com/taking-ref...uddhist-450056
With Love
Eelco

[sky]

Originally Posted by Eelco

Refuge is taken in the triple gem.

The Buddha,
The Dhamma,
The Sangha.

What that means is googable.
https://www.thoughtco.com/taking-ref...uddhist-450056
With Love
Eelco

Yes another Gem, which I have read before but a reminder is good sometimes

[sky]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipi...2.01.piya.html


The Jewel Discourse.....

[sky]

Originally Posted by innerlight

So when an aspirant is ready to take 'refuge' they are taking refuge into the Buddha self. They are taking refuge into the journey itself. Not into the school, or philosophy, or even who the teacher is, the true refuge comes form that surrender into the self? If I am to grasp the notion of what taking "refuge" means.

Read the link Eelco posted, it's a very good explanation.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by innerlight

So when an aspirant is ready to take 'refuge' they are taking refuge into the Buddha self. They are taking refuge into the journey itself. Not into the school, or philosophy, or even who the teacher is, the true refuge comes form that surrender into the self? If I am to grasp the notion of what taking "refuge" means.

In the Buddhist discourse, refuge something which anyone can google, but because SF is not a formal Buddhist school, I prefer notions based on the universal meanings rather than any meaning particular to Buddhist sects. I took refuge formally like 20 times, as in my school it is customary to take refuge before taking a meditation retreat, and I took a lot of retreats. It was explained to us that Buddha is not any person, and taking refuge in the Buddha means taking refuge in the enlightenment in yourself or in the quality of enlightenment generally (but no one attempted to define 'what enlightenment is'). To me it implied my deepest essence and rested me in my true nature, which I gathered was the point.


That's probably the only really relevant one, but refuge in the 'dhamma' is still somewhat relevant because it mean laws of nature or nature's way... which is the inevitable stuff: change, mortality, impermanance and such.... kamma, intent and consequence, and the rest of the stuff Buddha taught is all 'nature's way', and since it is the way it is, might as well be aligned with the universe rather than the futility of being opposed.

In a sentence, refuge is something like trust in the universe and your spiritual nature. This sets the foundation for meditation preceding. After meditating a lot I started to realise the point of it subjectively, and that's what Buddhism is, really, to realise in oneself.


There is a huge mish-mash of sects all claiming 'Buddhism', but of course sects are sectarian and not universal, so since 'Buddha' refers to spiritual nature and 'dhamma' refers to universal law... I prefer to remain in the universal spirit of the thing.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Gem

In the Buddhist discourse, refuge something which anyone can google, but because SF is not a formal Buddhist school, I prefer notions based on the universal meanings rather than any meaning particular to Buddhist sects. I took refuge formally like 20 times, as in my school it is customary to take refuge before taking a meditation retreat, and I took a lot of retreats. It was explained to us that Buddha is not any person, and taking refuge in the Buddha means taking refuge in the enlightenment in yourself or in the quality of enlightenment generally (but no one attempted to define 'what enlightenment is'). To me it implied my deepest essence and rested me in my true nature, which I gathered was the point.


That's probably the only really relevant one, but refuge in the 'dhamma' is still somewhat relevant because it mean laws of nature or nature's way... which is the inevitable stuff: change, mortality, impermanance and such.... kamma, intent and consequence, and the rest of the stuff Buddha taught is all 'nature's way', and since it is the way it is, might as well be aligned with the universe rather than the futility of being opposed.

In a sentence, refuge is something like trust in the universe and your spiritual nature. This sets the foundation for meditation preceding. After meditating a lot I started to realise the point of it subjectively, and that's what Buddhism is, really, to realise in oneself.


There is a huge mish-mash of sects all claiming 'Buddhism', but of course sects are sectarian and not universal, so since 'Buddha' refers to spiritual nature and 'dhamma' refers to universal law... I prefer to remain in the universal spirit of the thing.

' It was explained to us that Buddha is not any person '


Yes that's correct, but when you take refuge, it's in THE Buddha who is a person.

The Buddha,
The Dharma,
The Sangha.