Levels/Layers of Progression

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I will, no doubt...but please read my previous post in reply to the Tantric teachings of Dakshinamurthi in regards to the Cosmic Body of Bhairava...this is how I learn stuff....how He teaches me stuff...always has done...since I was a child...

I have known a few like you and work with people like you.

Very cool stuff. Hope to talk to you more about it someday.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by r6r6r

Ok so "heart" = "consciousness" = "all things" ergo to me this no differrent than using the word Universe or God.

There is a huge difference. Universe is limiting and God is some being that is in charge of it all.

The Buddha and KS would disagree with those terms.

Why do believe my "heart", "consciousness" ergo Universe is closed? DO you have evidence of my "hear"/"consciousness" being closed?

I didn't check but it is clear you are not familiar with prana/chi.

I practice being human and conscious of my human consciousness and others consciousness and the interrelationship between then everyday for many years now.

Sometimes Ive been more sensitive to those interrelatioships than others, and come to better understanding of those relationships with more experiences.

There is so much I dont understand, that others may understand ex calculus, algebra, trigonometry, brain, heart and all medical surgeries.

Sounds good.

.

http://buddhasutra.com/files/lankavatara_sutra.htm

I would prefer you summarize with clarity in as few words as possible.
http://community.livingunbound.net/i...heart-of-siva/

Can you summarize with less text? Cut to the core, or heart--- so to speak -- of above two links with less words?
"Look", with what, specifically?

I would much prefer that you read it and then ask questions.

"look" where specifically, is this "heart" located?

Where are you located, where is the I?

At the end of my last response post I did give you a numerically geometric scenario to use as an example of a "quantum leap"-- 2.. > 3/\ > 4\Y/ is relatively easy for most people to grasp and experience visually if not also tactility/touch.

2 ._. linear finiteness

3 /\ area{ XY or XZ or YZ } enclosure boundaries

4 \Y/ volume{ XYZ } enclosure boundaries we experience, and we specifically experience over time{ t }.
---------------------------------------------

Occupied space is never static{ not in motion }.

Occupied space as physical/energy is energetic ergo eternally in motion{ not static }.

Metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts are not in motion because they are not occupied space.

The true void of macro-infinite non-occupied space is a location Universe can expand into but in so doing occupies that non-occupied space.

I am talking more about being all of that.. not how it is dualistic in some place and somewhere.

[r6r6]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

That which makes one a Buddha is the realization of emptiness of universal mind.

I questioned what specifically "universal mind" was in first or other responses.

Where is it located? Have asked this type question previously also.

What specifically makes the "universal mind" not same as any persons access to metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts?

I'm dubious of words and concepts that others cannot point to defining specifics, examples, common experience, location etc.

You stated in previous post "natural" as tho some aspect of human is not natural. Anything that occurs in nature/Universe is natural. imho.

I gave you some clear numerical examples that people see/look and or feel of "quantum leap".

We may say, that any time a person has a realization, understanding, comprehension, 'gets it' moment, is a quantum leap from not getting it to getting it.

Ex learning to walk or ride a bike, tie shoes,grounding this or that completes a loop ( ) between positive and negative posts of a battery, conception not a stork is how babies come to exist etc.

3D \Y/ volume > 2D /\ area > 1D ._. line/linear

Time ^v > physical/energy~~ > motion ~~ > frequency /\/ > 5 senses{ tactile{ touch }, olfactory{ smell }, auditory, EMRadiation{ visual }, taste{ gustatory }

r6

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by r6r6r

I questioned what specifically "universal mind" was in first or other responses.

Where is it located? Have asked this type question previously also.

What specifically makes the "universal mind" not same as any persons access to metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts?

I'm dubious of words and concepts that others cannot point to defining specifics, examples, common experience, location etc.

You stated in previous post "natural" as tho some aspect of human is not natural. Anything that occurs in nature/Universe is natural. imho.

I gave you some clear numerical examples that people see/look and or feel of "quantum leap".

We may say, that any time a person has a realization, understanding, comprehension, 'gets it' moment, is a quantum leap from not getting it to getting it.

Ex learning to walk or ride a bike, tie shoes,grounding this or that completes a loop ( ) between positive and negative posts of a battery, conception not a stork is how babies come to exist etc.

3D \Y/ volume > 2D /\ area > 1D ._. line/linear

Time ^v > physical/energy~~ > motion ~~ > frequency /\/ > 5 senses{ tactile{ touch }, olfactory{ smell }, auditory, EMRadiation{ visual }, taste{ gustatory }

r6

r6,

I have given you multiple quotes and texts to help explain what universal consciousness is and what is beyond it.

Please take a look and if you have questions with the texts I would be more than happy to assist.

We may say, that any time a person has a realization, understanding, comprehension, 'gets it' moment, is a quantum leap from not getting it to getting it.

Isn't that just thoughts? Not really a quantum leap except of the intellectual understanding of a concept.

Much different to understand how the sun works compared to being the sun.

See the difference?

[r6r6]

jonesboy--There is a huge difference. Universe is limiting and God is some being that is in charge of it all.

But you said "all things". If you do not consider Universe or God "all things" but "heart" and "consciousness" as "all things", then that is pretty confusing to me, and does not ring true.

I didn't check but it is clear you are not familiar with prana/chi.

I bought a book on Hatha Yoga when I was 18 and practiced many of the motions/stretchs and breathing{ prana } exercises. I still do some of those exercises to this day, just not on regular basis and especially the breathing{ prana } as they are the easy to practice most anytime anywhere.

Where is the "chi" located? Does any doctor have a instrument to measure a persons "chi"?

Lets be clear, Einstien refuted his early claims that gravity was and actual, occupied space force. Later on Feynman offered ideas that show that it is a force.

Recently nobel prize was given to three people proving that gravity waves exist ergo an actual force. It is theorized as bosonic force as the others, but since it has not been quantised or quantified it cannot be a true part of the standard model of physics, yet.

And as stated in response earlier to some other statements by you, I dont think your understand the differrence between fermionic matter and a bosonic forces. I can go back and find your exact comments for clarity.

It was message #74 where it appears you do not understand that the body{ fermionic matter } is not light{ photons/bosonic force }

I would much prefer that you read it and then ask questions.

You could try.

Where are you located, where is the I?

"you"? I dont give out my location on the net. I'm on Earth in US. That is a start and more of location than you have given me to any of my questions with a similar query.

I ergo the I in I-verse, or I-verse is metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept/concept. Ive been very clear for a few years with my beliefs in these regards and clarify with much specifity.

Metpahysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts do not occupy a space ergo do not have a location and we access them via our nervous system.

I am talking more about being all of that.. not how it is dualistic in some place and somewhere.

Your using a lot of words that are offer little clarity, definition, location, specifity and common experience of all humans.

Ive offered you specific numerically geometric examples of "quantum leaps" and examples of via learning.

Ive not seen any clarification of what your original "quantum leaps" were specifically that all humans share in common, or even not all humans.

r6

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by r6r6r

But you said "all things". If you do not consider Universe or God "all things" but "heart" and "consciousness" as "all things", then that is pretty confusing to me, and does not ring true.

Which universe, in which dimension?

All of them or one? They are infinite.. saying the universe is a limited view.

Also, what is God?

1 John 1:5

This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.


Maybe the words of Jesus will help.

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

Motion and rest would be like void=form and form=void from the Heart Sutra in Buddhism.

I bought a book on Hatha Yoga when I was 18 and practiced many of the motions/stretchs and breathing{ prana } exercises. I still do some of those exercises to this day, just not on regular basis and especially the breathing{ prana } as they are the easy to practice most anytime anywhere.

Where is the "chi" located? Does any doctor have a instrument to measure a persons "chi"?

Again, it is everything.

Lets be clear, Einstien refuted his early claims that gravity was and actual, occupied space force. Later on Feynman offered ideas that show that it is a force.

Recently nobel prize was given to three people proving that gravity waves exist ergo an actual force. It is theorized as bosonic force as the others, but since it has not been quantised or quantified it cannot be a true part of the standard model of physics, yet.

Yet string theory would say the same thing as me wouldn't it :)

And as stated in response earlier to some other statements by you, I dont think your understand the differrence between fermionic matter and a bosonic forces. I can go back and find your exact comments for clarity.

It was message #74 where it appears you do not understand that the body{ fermionic matter } is not light{ photons/bosonic force }

Those are all things, separation.. move beyond such "things"

"you"? I dont give out my location on the net. I'm on Earth in US. That is a start and more of location than you have given me to any of my questions with a similar query.

lol, I meant where is the I located that you identify with? Can you find it in your body, out of your body? Where is the I that is you?

I ergo the I in I-verse, or I-verse is metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept/concept. Ive been very clear for a few years with my beliefs in these regards and clarify with much specifity.

Metpahysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts do not occupy a space ergo do not have a location and we access them via our nervous system.

Again, that would be a limited view. That is where most people start to experience prana especially when following yoga traditions.

Your using a lot of words that are offer little clarity, definition, location, specifity and common experience of all humans.

Ive offered you specific numerically geometric examples of "quantum leaps" and examples of via learning.

Ive not seen any clarification of what your original "quantum leaps" were specifically that all humans share in common, or even not all humans.

r6

I have offered terms and texts to learn the terms and meaning.

I guess we can just agree to not see eye to eye on this stuff.

All the best,

Tom

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Hi 7L,

There are some traditions that try to skip the heart but that is a limited path.

Hi Jonesboy and thanks for your reply.
For certain, it is limiting. At our present stage, since this is the stage that presents as most universally lacking at this time and since it is foundational to all other stages, I would say it is the root of all problems and solutions.
Awakening of the heart centre has been and still is deficient (through intentional underdevelopment) in humankind at large and even more universally in particular contexts (such as male-female adult non-familial relationships of any kind).

(I am forced to add "of any kind" because right now essentially none exist aside from primarily sexual ones that lack authentic love...and as a result, the sexual "relationship" is all many allow for conceptually AND on the ground, when I use the term "relationship").

It would seem to be a nonsequitur to speak of advancement without opening the heart more fully, but as the history of humanity has shown us, in fact we have largely operated to date without having done so. Including often mastering many of the higher-level techniques, but without manifesting the chariot (in kabbalah terms). I have seen not many but some even build the crown without opening the heart chakra more fully (deeply grounding and freely manifesting authentic love in our tangible words and deeds, day in and day out, to all we meet, whether fam, friend, neighbor, stranger, or partner). Without a doubt, the most subtle attainment cannot be had without manifesting authentic love in being in our personal lives...but many attain higher stages to varying degrees without it.

They of course may shy away from discussion of the heart-led consciousness, but they are eager to discuss the drier aspects of mind and the (admittedly) cool techniques. I am not at all saying this is you, just to be very clear. I am however saying that I have seen it in many. How many have been like Jesus, equally loving women authentically, engaging with them personally and daily for years, with an agape love for them as people and as friends and with equal respect for their humanity? With no thought or expectation of sex or servicing in exchange for his manifest love and friendship, day in and day out?

I have found that many traditions do work on trying to open the heart or open it more like with Buddhism loving kindness meditation or further along like tummo.

As one let's go more and more our natural state shines through. That natural state is one filled with love and compassion. As a matter of fact the Buddha mentions that in order to progress to the higher stages of a Bodhisattva it is that Bodhisattva vow, the compassion to help others that can help one over come the bliss and continue along the path to a Buddha.

Agreed...and many women would say pregancy, childbirth, and childrearing do the same thing. Of course, this is also partly cultural conditioning, where women are geared and encouraged to be empathic and to help others. We could as a culture CHOOSE to gear and encourage men in the same way. Bliss rarely more than momentarily steers women from their course of ministering to others, and as I said, at least 50% of this is cultural. We owe it to men to encourage the same in them, particularly if the other 50% of our humanity is not particularly disposed toward lovingkindness or is neutral.

Women who have reached their spiritual maturity have usually long since understood that love is not a feeling. Love is a state but more than that. Love is grace and love is your entire being. Love is what is. Loving others manifestly is how we share in the oneness, and it's absolutely NOT sexual -- not until and unless there is already a manifest authentic love of souls.

Love is in the presence and in the doing. It is never reliant on the feeling of anything momentary. Love is (and radiates) the sublime joy itself...bliss is wonderful, but if folks are looking for bliss or a high of some kind to avoid real life, then it is a misdirection. Likewise, if they are looking for something to "move them" in order to be love now, they are missing the entirety of what love is, and of who they are.

Many people have walls up that create separation. For some it is letting others in to love them, in spirituality I know people who don't believe in a teacher or gurus or don't believe in shared energy work.

I believe that in their own time and in their own way, nearly everyone will find their way, including their own guides (even their own "higher self") and many will find partners (both soul fam and fellow travellers, etc) for the shared work we all do. Once many become more conscious of this, that will probably open many up to working with others more deeply. Not all, but probably at least for some.

As far as letting others in...that has to do with living in a sangha of agape love with one another. First we must simply do for one another in agape love -- nothing invasive or penetrative required or expected -- if we cannot yet be in our fullness...and then we can come to be more fully. Before grace can be received, there is simply the leap of faith required for the first step. More below...

People have many, many reasons to stay within themselves, to not open themselves. Fear is often the biggest reason.

When one removes the fear, the obstructions.. what is left is the joy and love and the more fear we let go of.. the more that love can shine through.

Eventually one is able to share such love with others both spiritually and non spiritually.

I would say we all have the potential to be a Buddha but in my experience one needs grace to do so. The Buddha said one needs grace, KS is all about grace.

It is kinda like if you are against being helped.. how can you really help others?

Look in your heart and be.

Very true and nicely said...we have to open to grace, in order to receive grace and to be transformed by grace. There you go.

I just wanted to touch on this. I do understand what you mean. But honestly, in fact, there is no difference. I understand that folks have trouble realising the truth, which is that we simply are who we truly are at centre. And that once realised, folks have at least as much trouble (usually more) owning that truth and manifesting it more profoundly and tangibly in their daily waking lives.

But for those who have awakened, how many actually say, yes I am falling short of who I am "in spirit" and have done for many years now...and yes, I have no solid excuse for being one way and living another in full realisation of it (and I may have not even worked through my fear and loathing toward living in truth)...and yes, I'm going to just compartmentalise and avoid meaningful discussion of how to manifest and actualise, such as...

-discussion of how we manifest authentic love in the real world, even absent any preestablished historical context (which often needs "upgraded" anyway, to say the least)
-real-life group work
-case studies of everyday, normative situations
-ethical choices and alternatives in real world situations, etc, and
-how to transform everyday situations into opportunities for healing and reconciliation
-discussion of the tangible ways spirit affects matter AND matter affects spirit (since the distinction is never "hard" even when we are incarnate)
-etc....

Instead, those folks may talk about [X] aspect of spirituality in some abstract context where it is devoid of a real-world context of being and doing with one another. And then they may continue to use cultural conditioning to justify all manner of non-authentically loving action toward others...whilst they go meditate or do some energy work. Truthfully, it's pretty much the same level of integrity as giving at the office or doing a little volunteer work to make up for beating the wife and kids, or deceiving others in order to get sex, or to steal their retirement.

What you say about the fear and loathing is true. But in some way, I think the psychological behaviourists got to a deep truth. First be and do for self and others with a simple agape love, as best you can...(i.e., be and do lovingkindness, given without coercive demands or expectations)...and then the grace which always surrounds us will begin to saturate us. It will surround you and saturate the armour of the heart (the workaround), softening the hard-hearted. Eventually, in the authentically loving circle of belonging, grace will strengthen and fortify your heart (weak and stripped of obstruction and defenses), and eventually you can open to the grace more fully, trading armour for light and love. The truth of who you are at centre. If we could all live in sangha but not enclosed and regardless of male, female, etc., then this is also the ideal lay state.

At that moment, you can begin to truly step into Stage 4...the beginning of the fullness of our humanity

Peace & blessings
7L

[r6r6]

jonesboy--Which universe, in which dimension?All of them or one? They are infinite.. saying the universe is a limited view.

Why you believe there is infinite amount of local universes is a mystery to me. Ive heard people throw out the word infinite in respect to this or that so many times and as always, I think they have no idea what there talking about, no evidence for the claims etc.

Most people do not have a grasp of enormous size of even our finite observed universe so going to infinite quantum leap of having a metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept of infinite and nothing more than just a concept.

We observe a finite Universe, so I would be pleased for you to show many evidence of infinite set of local universes.

Again, it is everything.

First you used the word "heart" and I asked you what and/or where that was exactly and you stated it was "consciousness" and "all things" and now "chi"{ see message #86 in reference to the above }

Those are all things, separation.. move beyond such "things"

Your the one making a claim regarding the body is light and I dont think you know what your talking about in these regards. Ive ask for more clarity and specifics etc. I 2000 word essay of some buddhist site is not you giving a simple, clear, example that, hopefully some aspect that all humans have experience ergo can relate to your concepts as given.

Again, that would be a limited view. That is where most people start to experience prana especially when following yoga traditions.

Limits is all humans know or experience. Your confusing and conflating my comments regarding "prana" and "I-verse", Two differrent concepts I responded too seperately.

I gave a valid explanation regarding your question of where is the "I".

I guess we can just agree to not see eye to eye on this stuff.

I see clearly what your words are, they just lack clarity, and cohesive wholeness that most humans can relate to with everyday common experiences, or too what humans have observed at many levels scales of existence with fermionic matter, bosonic forces, gravity, dark energy, virtual particles and dark matter.

Heart = consciousness = everything = chi but does not equal Universe or God. I just think that you thoughts need put your thoughts into an outline/list of order that is clear to most humans and makes sense to those humans who seek a truth, that, is can be common to the experiences most of us have, and many times verified by scientific processes.

Best wishes to your and yours also Tom.

r6

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by r6r6r

Why you believe there is infinite amount of local universes is a mystery to me. Ive heard people throw out the word infinite in respect to this or that so many times and as always, I think they have no idea what there talking about, no evidence for the claims etc.

Most people do not have a grasp of enormous size of even our finite observed universe so going to infinite quantum leap of having a metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept of infinite and nothing more than just a concept.

We observe a finite Universe, so I would be pleased for you to show many evidence of infinite set of local universes.

Even science says this.. look within if you want the answers.

First you used the word "heart" and I asked you what and/or where that was exactly and you stated it was "consciousness" and "all things" and now "chi"{ see message #86 in reference to the above }

Yes, I have answered you at least 3 times already..

Your the one making a claim regarding the body is light and I dont think you know what your talking about in these regards. Ive ask for more clarity and specifics etc. I 2000 word essay of some buddhist site is not you giving a simple, clear, example that, hopefully some aspect that all humans have experience ergo can relate to your concepts as given.

This is a spiritual site is it not?

I have shown you Buddhist, KS and now Christian texts that same the same thing.

If you can't think beyond scientific concepts and things.. again our conversation will just go in circles.

Maybe the words of the Buddha will help.

Because of folly they do not understand that all things are like Maya, like the reflection of the moon in water, that there is no self-substance to be imagined as an ego-soul and its belongings, and that all their definite ideas rise from their false discriminations of what exists only as it is seen of the mind itself. They do not realize that things have nothing to do with qualify and qualifying, nor with the course of birth, abiding and destruction, and instead they assert that they are born of a creator, of time, of atoms, of some celestial spirit. It is because the ignorant are given up to discrimination that they move along with the stream of appearances, but it is not so with the wise.

Limits is all humans know or experience. Your confusing and conflating my comments regarding "prana" and "I-verse", Two differrent concepts I responded too seperately.

I gave a valid explanation regarding your question of where is the "I".

I just asked you to look deeper than on earth.

Heart = consciousness = everything = chi but does not equal Universe or God. I just think that you thoughts need put your thoughts into an outline/list of order that is clear to most humans and makes sense to those humans who seek a truth, that, is can be common to the experiences most of us have, and many times verified by scientific processes.

This is basic stuff. In all traditions, you are the light which is all things. There is not one being that is in charge and the creator of all things.

It is more we become like Siva, not cease into him or live in some place some where when we die.

Best wishes to your and yours also Tom.

r6

Thanks

[jonesboy]

Maybe this will help:

50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

That motion and rest is the same thing as the Heart Sutra Void=Form and Form=Void.

The place where the light came into being by itself would be emptiness.

Daoism can really help with this one.

"We have come from the One, from the place (Dao) where the One cam into being by itself and then established (itself), and (we likewise) appeared in their image"

And then, it goes to basically, how can you prove that? Because we know that is the place where motion = rest and is also both.

Motion is energy/light. Rest is perfect void. So we all came into being from the place where void=energy/light, and we call that place the Holy Father.

So we see similarities between what Jesus has said, Daoism and Buddhism.

So what is that light/energy and since we are talking Buddhism is there any reference to energy/light?

DZOGCHEN
THE SELF-PERFECTED STATE
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

In the Dzogchen teachings the primordial state of the base
is not defined only as being void, but is explained as having
three aspects or characteristics, called the "three primordial
wisdoms": essence, nature, and energy.

The third of the three primordial wisdoms is energy. Its
characteristic is that it manifests without interruption.4 The
explanation of energy in Dzogchen is fundamental to understanding
the base. All dimensions, whether pure or impure,
material or subtle, are manifestations of one aspect or
another of energy. To explain how both transmigration and
enlightenment originate, three ways in which energy manifests
are described. These three modes of energy are called
"tsel" (rtsal), "rolba" (rol ba) , and "dang" (gdangs), names
that cannot be translated into Western languages.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/sh...ght=primordial

So now we know that energy is the base of our Primordial State and is what all things in all dimensions are made of.

So what about Hinduism?

Let's look at what Kashmir Shaivism has to say.

The Heart of Siva

The Heart, says Abhinavagupta, is the very Self of Siva, of Bhairava,

and of the Devi, the Goddess who is inseparable from Siva. Indeed,

the Heart is the site of their union (yamala), of their embrace (samghatta).

This abode is pure consciousness (caitanya) as well as unlimited bliss

(ananda). As consciousness the Heart is the unbounded, infinite light

(prakasa) as well as the freedom (svatantrya) and spontaneity (vimarsa)

of that light to appear in a multitude and variety of forms. The Heart,

says Abhinavagupta, is the sacred fire-pit of Bhairava.1

The Heart is the Ultimate (anuttara) which is both utterly transcendent

to (visvottirna) and yet totally immanent in (visvamaya) all created things.

It is the ultimate essence (sara). Thus, the Heart embodies the paradoxical

nature of Siva and is therefore a place of astonishment (camatkara), sheer

wonder (vismaya), and ineffable mystery. The Heart is the fullness and

unboundedness of Siva (purnatva), the plenum of being that overflows

continuously into manifestation. At the same time, it is also an inconceivable

emptiness (sunyatisunya).2 The Heart is the unbounded and

universal Self (purnahanta).

http://community.livingunbound.net/i...heart-of-siva/

I hope I broke that down to show that everything is light/energy. Without that realization you can't become one like Siva or realize the Primordial State or as Jesus would say, become a Son of God.