Pragmatic Buddhism

What attracts me most in Buddhism is the detailed investigation of what reality is as it is percieved by the senses.
Personally I feel the religion(s) that claim to have Buddhism at their base not that interesting. Although I feel drawn to the allure of devotional practises.
As my main focus in buddhism I tend to gravitate towards Mahasi Sayadaw style noting as a practice. And often refer to the abidhamma to make sense of how consciousness behaves. For reference I use this book. Which is free to download.

Many westerners have taken up Buddhism in a variety of ways, and even though I feel more empowered by the various pragmatic approaches because they seem (to me)more verifiable in terms of experience. I would like to invite you to share what attracted you to Buddhism before going on a tangent about how Buddhism in all it's intricacies enriched my life and spiritual practice. I hope there will be time and opportunity for that here..

With Love
Eelco

[sky]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

What attracts me most in Buddhism is the detailed investigation of what reality is as it is percieved by the senses.
Personally I feel the religion(s) that claim to have Buddhism at their base not that interesting. Although I feel drawn to the allure of devotional practises.
As my main focus in buddhism I tend to gravitate towards Mahasi Sayadaw style noting as a practice. And often refer to the abidhamma to make sense of how consciousness behaves. For reference I use this book. Which is free to download.

Many westerners have taken up Buddhism in a variety of ways, and even though I feel more empowered by the various pragmatic approaches because they seem (to me)more verifiable in terms of experience. I would like to invite you to share what attracted you to Buddhism before going on a tangent about how Buddhism in all it's intricacies enriched my life and spiritual practice. I hope there will be time and opportunity for that here..

With Love
Eelco

It was Buddhism that attracted itself to me What I mean is Buddhism came looking for me. A long story but it came to me before I knew what the word meant.

Sounds like this will be an interesting Thread, thanks.

That sounds like a story I'd like to hear.

When I started on the spiritual path. That is when I intentionally set out to search for what enlightenment meant. I filed Buddhism under religions and the Buddha in the same category as an eastern enlightened teacher alongside Bhagwan(Osho), Jezus, Sai Baba and others. Figuring that they had something I didn't.

It wasn't until I set myself a goal to find "the silence within" I'e going without tv, internet and books for a few months when I realized I still had a lot to learn. That's when I found the pragmatic dharma movement and fount that the Buddha's teachings are way more accessible and detailed than I had given them credit for.

It seemed as if the sutta's themselves suddenly contained actual roadmaps, to do lists and overviews of the terrain from here to the cessation of suffering. That's where I resolved i.e shifted my perspective from the beautiful image I had created around enlightenment and started viewing it as an achievable goal one can work towards.

With the sutta's as a guide(Not law or dogma) I noticed how following the instructions did yield the results promised. Concentrating on the Breath I found that the concentration states(jhana's) are real. Even though I only touched the first one briefly I have no doubt any longer the others aren't real.

Having seen some of the 16 stages of insight I no longer have any doubt that practicing according to the sutta's and some of the more recent renderings and explanations of those sutta's will not yield the results promised..

In retrospect I can see where and how my mind and understanding has changed.
Where at first I couldn't understand why disciples of a guru would still envision grotesk experiences even when the Guru said it wasn't something special to now having a pretty clear idea of what to look for in terms of experiental understanding.

WIth Love
Eelco

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

I would like to invite you to share what attracted you to Buddhism before going on a tangent about how Buddhism in all it's intricacies enriched my life and spiritual practice. I hope there will be time and opportunity for that here..

With Love
Eelco

Thank you for this interesting topic, Eelco

I think that I am going to plagiarize sky123 here and say it was almost like it was meant to be (no, I am not an aspiring author of romance novels )

I was not brought up as a religious person, and so I had not looked into what the Buddha or Jesus or any spiritual master taught really. In my earlier years, if someone had told me "there was suffering", I don't think it would have really resonated. But, at one point, I felt unhappy in my life, it was a very distinctive stage because even though to the outside world I had everything, I could not understand why I was not happy at that point.

So it triggered in me a distinct recognition that this mind was somehow not completely mine...

Long story short(er) --

I discovered Buddhism one day, funnily enough on a forum when I was googling something else. I read some of the advice on this forum, and that day, sensing some unhappiness coming, I decided to try the advice I had read. The world lit up and I was hooked. I went back to the forum and started learning - I was very fortunate back then to have access to many resources and practitioners who were all practicing well, with authenticity. I remember back then thinking that the surface level was what made a Buddhist but I now know it's not surface level talk, it's the inner workings of the heart mind, the complete comprehension of happiness, insight and silence that makes Buddhism so effective and honorable. Being a beginner, I read every Buddhist book I could come across to make sure I grounded myself in authentic teachings, and the more I read and learnt, the more it just all sunk in with complete resonance and agreement. I was interested. I traveled after that to many monasteries and sat my first seven day retreat after a few months. Through meetings, e.g. one monk, I saw the possibilities of practice - the indistinguishable Light of the Dhamma - the joy, lightness and wisdom that is possible. I remember also going to a Buddhist Center in California and (as a student only interested in the practice) and being "room-mates" with a lady who was suggesting I "check out" some of the men there.

I knew from the start that it was only the genuine and authentic practice I was interested in. I also knew, that it would be hard for me to find a teacher whom I could trust. At one local Buddhist center, after I discussed some things with the resident teachers, they said pleasant words - but I was not interested in that - I didn't care for approval or praise, all I craved for was the cessation of dukkha, all I craved for was Ultimate Truth. They were good teachers and had some genuine insights, but I knew that they had not reached full cessation or full, complete Awakening. And so I just kept at it. Each time I lived in a center, suffering would be almost non-existent, light, the Light of Dhamma would be stronger in those areas. It was always easier for me in cloistered grounds...

By this time, I knew a lot, but there was still some final bridge I could not cross, some dukkha there that would not rest, and even though I had incredible awakening experiences which showed me time and time again the truth and strength of Buddhist guidance, still there was that one final itch. That semblance of suffering I still felt at times.

My job was very successful, I was offered promotions and to head a global department. But I suddenly felt very unhappy at work. It was during some rocky economic times. But I suddenly had the (weird, wild) thought to go see a certain teacher. It was crazy and stupid, and many friends counseled me against going and leaving my job.

But the urge was strong, so I decided I would go. I told my employer, and instead of resigning, they offered to hold my job open for the months I would be away. When I decided, it was like a cloud cleared: suddenly I realized that I did like my job and I was in a very good, powerful position - so why was I going somewhere else?

But it was done. And so I went...

I met my teacher there. Of course being me, I didn't necessarily trust him but I trusted myself, and I trusted without a doubt the boons and manifestations of true practice. I sat for 10 hours a day and when I first did, I felt like I would cry because of the pain.

It was, over time, one of the most enjoyable moments of my life. Sitting after the first week was joyful - every sit was blissful, full of pleasure and joy. I sat smiling for hours and felt tremendous awe for people at these places - older men and women who sat through pain, intense pain, younger folk looking for a place to learn Dhamma, fellow companions in the quest for Buddhist truth.

I was very fortunate in that I didn't feel any pain in my sits, physical or otherwise. And I admired the courage of my fellow sitters even more. I am not sure I could do the practice for so many hours in pain. They had my deepest respect. The joyful meditation enabled me to make inquiries, to penetrate to deeper Buddhist truths and guided by my teacher, who was a magician in every way I could imagine - through those months - that final seed of dukkha left me then. I do not know how he did it or how it happened, but I practiced my heart out on that cushion day after day and as it did its thing, the Dhamma/my teacher?/the practice/my Spirit? did the rest. Some bridge, which I never knew how to cross despite knowing everything about Buddhist practice and having many deep insights over the years, just closed. I still don't know how he did it, but he gave me one of the greatest gifts I have ever received and my gratitude to him is unending.

So long story short: I suffered, and I found great resonance in Buddhist teachings and gave it a whirl. Found it true to its word and a beautiful religion all said and done. Am very grateful to it and to all my fellow companions and friends on this very beautiful path of practice.

BT

Thanks you for sharing BT.
My I ask where you went for your first retreat?

I was pulled between a Goenka course or a meditation center in germany that teaches a derivative of Mahasi style Vipassana.

The fact that in germany they alternated walking and sitting made me go there.
Even so my hips weren't happy and I had moments where tears came rolling down through observing dukkha of sitting.

Pain is a great teacher they say. I'm still on the fence about that.

With Love
Eelco

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

Thanks you for sharing BT.
My I ask where you went for your first retreat?

I was pulled between a Goenka course or a meditation center in germany that teaches a derivative of Mahasi style Vipassana.

The fact that in germany they alternated walking and sitting made me go there.
Even so my hips weren't happy and I had moments where tears came rolling down through observing dukkha of sitting.

Pain is a great teacher they say. I'm still on the fence about that.

With Love
Eelco

Hi Eelco

You're welcome !

My first retreat was a Zen retreat - called "sesshin" (Zen terminology) I remember googling Goenka at the time too - it seemed attractive as they did meditation, it was free, seemed reasonable. But I'm personally glad I did not go - apparently they have taped audio recordings and anyway, I just leaned towards Buddhism more so it just worked out better for me that way.

I should clarify that at the center I speak about above, and in fact, all centers I have been to, there is alternating between walking and sitting. I sometimes use the word sitting to indicate meditation retreats (habit). Sometimes if there was no walking, we would stand instead. During intensive retreat, we did 10-12 hours of meditation but there was a schedule - sits / walks / eating / work period. Even 20-40 minutes of sitting can be painful and I personally don't believe that pain is necessary. I do know that many in those retreats felt a lot of pain because the sits could last for hours (alternating between sitting and standing up or walking). Just so you are aware:

1. I don't believe that such intensity is required for everyone - it was just what I chose to do at the time. There are many Dhamma options.
2. There was always an option during these intensive retreats to follow a less strict format - if people were unwell or had issues with the body, they could sit in a place without those rules and some folks did go, but some chose to stay within the stricter format. I think both are fine personally.

At the Theravadan monastery, I remember sits were quite short and quite informal as well. Their style was free time to do walking meditation, self-reflection etc. Oh, and of course, work periods like cleaning toilets and other glamorous activities

So yes, I don't personally believe pain is necessary, and also, I believe that everyone has the necessary ingredients already for practice - this body, this mind, these thoughts, feelings, Dhamma practice. So go with what you're comfortable with, perhaps?

Metta

BT

PS I remember at my first retreat, I seriously wanted to run away on the second day!

[sky]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

That sounds like a story I'd like to hear.

When I started on the spiritual path. That is when I intentionally set out to search for what enlightenment meant. I filed Buddhism under religions and the Buddha in the same category as an eastern enlightened teacher alongside Bhagwan(Osho), Jezus, Sai Baba and others. Figuring that they had something I didn't.

It wasn't until I set myself a goal to find "the silence within" I'e going without tv, internet and books for a few months when I realized I still had a lot to learn. That's when I found the pragmatic dharma movement and fount that the Buddha's teachings are way more accessible and detailed than I had given them credit for.

It seemed as if the sutta's themselves suddenly contained actual roadmaps, to do lists and overviews of the terrain from here to the cessation of suffering. That's where I resolved i.e shifted my perspective from the beautiful image I had created around enlightenment and started viewing it as an achievable goal one can work towards.

With the sutta's as a guide(Not law or dogma) I noticed how following the instructions did yield the results promised. Concentrating on the Breath I found that the concentration states(jhana's) are real. Even though I only touched the first one briefly I have no doubt any longer the others aren't real.

Having seen some of the 16 stages of insight I no longer have any doubt that practicing according to the sutta's and some of the more recent renderings and explanations of those sutta's will not yield the results promised..

In retrospect I can see where and how my mind and understanding has changed.
Where at first I couldn't understand why disciples of a guru would still envision grotesk experiences even when the Guru said it wasn't something special to now having a pretty clear idea of what to look for in terms of experiental understanding.

WIth Love
Eelco

Once I did try on here to explain my childhood feelings, perceptions and experiences that totally went against my strict Catholic upbringing and I was ridiculed and called a liar so I will keep it short and sweet .

Meditating before I knew what the word meant, knowing I wasn't my body, realizing that I am not my thoughts, understanding pain and suffering are different, could never agree with the ' Soul 'teaching in Catholicism, feeling that my way of looking at things was so different from my peers but not knowing why.. I could go on and on but I won't.

I came across a Buddhist Temple a few years ago by mistake, didn't even know it existed, didn't know anything about Buddhism at all but decided to call in and pick up a few leaflets, my friend wanted to try some classes advertised so we went along. After the classes we would have refreshments ( they had a lovely Cafe) and I started to have one to one chats with a Nun, I explained my inner feeling and childhood experiences and she immediately understood what I was trying to understand most of my life, it was like she helped me put the pieces together in my jigsaw puzzle..

I'm still learning, still trying, and enjoying every moment of it, experiencing different things as life goes on. It's a very enjoyable trip

[sky]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

Thanks you for sharing BT.
My I ask where you went for your first retreat?

I was pulled between a Goenka course or a meditation center in germany that teaches a derivative of Mahasi style Vipassana.

The fact that in germany they alternated walking and sitting made me go there.
Even so my hips weren't happy and I had moments where tears came rolling down through observing dukkha of sitting.

Pain is a great teacher they say. I'm still on the fence about that.

With Love
Eelco

I wonder who decided ' pain is a great teacher '

[happy soul]

Impermanence. That's what originally struck a chord with me about Buddhism.

One morning I was having breakfast at a restaurant, and I ordered the egg tacos. They come with jalapeños. The waitress forgot them. It seems like a very small thing, but I really wanted the jalapeños. Then I thought about the idea of impermanence. I had the thought that, AFTER I finish eating, it will be the PAST, and in a sense it won't matter if I had the pleasure of eating the jalapeños, because it will be over. I had total peace with it. It was a great healing, and I didn't even ask the waitress to bring them when she came back to the table. It was the first time I had fully experienced the power of impermanence.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by sky123

I wonder who decided ' pain is a great teacher '

The first 'teacher' in meditation is almost always pain.