Can someone remove another person's karma?

[sky]

Originally Posted by django

Sky, what about Tonglen as a vehicle for taking on someone's karma?

I'm normally very hard line on these sort of things myself, but I wonder if there's an 'authentic compassion loophole' somewhere?

According to Buddha's teaching in the Dhammapada, we are responsible for our own Karma, so I would say no we cannot take anothers Karma.

Practising Tonglen will avert karmic seeds that haven't ripened.... ( our own ) not others.

[running]

Originally Posted by django

i'm not sure that a guru creating bliss and silence in someone is directly related to removing karma, do you think these are equivalent though?

physical ailmemts seem to go away when obstructions are cleared. i am a witness to that cause my purpose for spiritual developmemt was do to health problema. so that was what i was observing.

relationships change with clearing. putting joy and silemce in everythimg changes things.

for me the circumstances of life is not what should be focusex on in the spiritual path. i mean if somebody is interested in transcending oneself to high consciousness. cause it letting go that seems to be a big tool for growth. so focusing on the idea of karma and makimg it important would be counterproductive imo.

which is why in my first post i believe i said its not like winning a bunch of cash. of course if its about making ideal circumstances for the person then karma would be important i suppose. so im speaking from the perspective of consciousmess being the goal.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by django

i'm not sure that a guru creating bliss and silence in someone is directly related to removing karma, do you think these are equivalent though?

A real guru does more than create, he helps the student realize silence and bliss, not just when in his presence.

When one is able to reside in that silent energy and let things flow through.. That is what they say about Rigpa.. Issues just drop..

All of our issues are just thoughts that we attach to.. Truly moving beyond thoughts allows us to drop the issues :) they become empty...

[Jeremy Bong]

Karma of cause and effect因果论.

Intention is thinking or desire . If we have a bad desire but we don't do it then it doesn't result a karma. So the doing or action with the bad intention cause the karma. Say, a person thinking to stealing an object from the shop but he didn't do it. Then his intention can't result a karma.

After the karma is done, your karma will result a bad effect to make your life bad (the punishment will result a bad life arrangement by God). And most of them is arranged by the karma itself or the arrangement of the law of nature or the punishment arrangement by the highest authority of God.

The karma effect three generations of his life: the former life that caused the karma will carry on to this life and will result to your next life. These are leading by the karma itself which can't be vanished by anyhow or others.

So it's a Buddhism belief . If it can be destroyed by anyhow then a karma is not call a karma it's because it can't carry out the punishment or rewards to the good and bad doings of that person. Otherwise it will become only as a symbolic of punishment but nothing of its results or without enforcement to carry out the punishment. The bond of cause and effect 因果is not working if it can be erased that's have caused but no effect.

It's not because we want or don't want the effect or results it will be arranged by the nature of karma or by God. If the God gave a warning that human can't do anything in bad intention then if someone do it, it will be punished by that God. This is what we say here about karma effect.

There's a Chinese idiom: 天网恢恢，疏而不漏 the net of heaven has large meshes, but it lets nothing through. Or God's mill grinds slow but sure. Or Justice has a long arm. So it's to say, it can't be vanished anyhow. In Chinese believe: karma also results to our younger generations.

[shiningstars]

Originally Posted by running

what matters is what works for the person. countless people since forever have been able and do experience the bliss and silence. the idea that it has to be like this. or that to get from point a to point b is the major problem. is the major source of violence on the planet for millennia, and the greatest wall put up keeping people from being interested to be on their path to it.

its ridiculiois imo to say what he said if he had any decent perspectice of the scope of the process. its that sorta ridiculous whether intentional or not creates a society of puppets.

i usually dont speak my thoughts about it because its pretty much pointless and doesnt matter anyways. sense it is mostly human nature not to trust ones own intuition at this time. perhaps one day. instead suck into some kinda self hate that i saw being sold because its popular.

bliss and silence has nothing to do with becoming selfjudgemental and or arranging ones social behaviors to fit in any particular society. if it did nobody would be able to maintain it due to oneness.

as i experience it and some others the mind has nothing to do with it. nor do circumstances. if anything it is the idea that it does is the problem.

if its about becoming a better member of society as a whole that is important to somebody. the bliss and silence will already do that effortlessly. when one is happy and content the motive to be needy and selfish is no longer as valid.

if its about effort i would look into like an anthropologist every day folks whom are not religious. you will see the majority living mostly by the golden rule without a load of hogwash being hung over their head in the form of dogmatic ideas as a motivation.

i have personaly seen at least a hundred people in india swept into silence and or bliss due to presence. at least four or five dozen in the states. it happens because things become opened up to it. the cobwebs and so on cleared out of the way.

each person has most to do with it. i agree. and each person is on their own path. presence can make a difference and the evidence is very clear through experiencing it. but to make clear im not suggesting it does it. the person does. im saying it helps. like a turbo on an engine.

I'm not a part of any tradition. everything i say comes from me and my personal experience. if that makes me my own cult of one. that is fine. i dont take that personal. perhaps a compliment. im not sure.

Not sure who is saying it must be this way from A to B.

But as said, no one can remove your traits and tendencies without your own work.

"Bliss and silence" are not anything extraordinary if they are just experiences. Experiences come and go.

Whilst each informs us, is that the goal?

What comes from within sustains without, what comes from without is still weak tea, in my experience. We have to individually take those lessons to heart and learn the mechanics, and workings of what is true.

I have had experiences with those who change consciousness in around them - I am not denying it.

I am saying however, that each person owns their own heart/mind and that's something that's focal to Buddhist practice.

As is one's own kamma, as defined above.

shiningstars

[shiningstars]

Originally Posted by sky123

Practising Tonglen will avert karmic seeds that haven't ripened.... ( our own ) not others.

Source please.

[shiningstars]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

A real guru does more than create, he helps the student realize silence and bliss, not just when in his presence.

When one is able to reside in that silent energy and let things flow through.. That is what they say about Rigpa.. Issues just drop..

All of our issues are just thoughts that we attach to.. Truly moving beyond thoughts allows us to drop the issues :) they become empty...

No grocery shopping anymore, or doctor visits?

shiningstars

[shiningstars]

Originally Posted by running

for me the circumstances of life is not what should be focusex on in the spiritual path. i mean if somebody is interested in transcending oneself to high consciousness. cause it letting go that seems to be a big tool for growth. so focusing on the idea of karma and makimg it important would be counterproductive imo.

which is why in my first post i believe i said its not like winning a bunch of cash. of course if its about making ideal circumstances for the person then karma would be important i suppose. so im speaking from the perspective of consciousmess being the goal.

I agree: I never focused or obsessed on kamma, as much as the practice to genuine realization.

[running]

Originally Posted by shiningstars

Not sure who is saying it must be this way from A to B.

But as said, no one can remove your traits and tendencies without your own work.

"Bliss and silence" are not anything extraordinary if they are just experiences. Experiences come and go.

Whilst each informs us, is that the goal?

What comes from within sustains without, what comes from without is still weak tea, in my experience. We have to individually take those lessons to heart and learn the mechanics, and workings of what is true.

I have had experiences with those who change consciousness in around them - I am not denying it.

I am saying however, that each person owns their own heart/mind and that's something that's focal to Buddhist practice.

As is one's own kamma, as defined above.

shiningstars

i guess you forgot the commemt i was commenting on. or perhaps it got lost somewhere which easily happens.

if bliss and silence is coming and going then that is in the process and good.

if it always is reguardless of the mind, emotions, and circumstances then that is not something that comes and goes.

its absolutely possible reguardless of ones personality and such. the idea that it is only for a certain type is wrong and misleading. the idea of needing or needing to not have particular traits is a road block.

[Jeremy Bong]

Originally Posted by running

i guess you forgot the commemt i was commenting on. or perhaps it got lost somewhere which easily happens.

if bliss and silence is coming and going then that is in the process and good.

if it always is reguardless of the mind, emotions, and circumstances then that is not something that comes and goes.

its absolutely possible reguardless of ones personality and such. the idea that it is only for a certain type is wrong and misleading. the idea of needing or needing to not have particular traits is a road block.

Maybe Westerners belief of karma is different from the Eastern Buddhism belief. What I can see from your post is: you want it high then karma will go high or want it low then it will go low. It seems that you're better than Buddha.

Maybe you've not talking of karma here just the feeling of the mind. But karma is not like that and I don't know much of it, just let shiningstar to teach you I think she knows more than I know about it.