Lookin for Truth in all the wrong places

[Squatchit]

Hiya Phroggy et al...

How about looking for peace in all the right places....does that work?

(I love putting things on their head)

Squib

Greetings..

...This is why there is often so much confusion over the use of the word. In self-realization the attachment to the belief in the existence of the understander is released through a specific 'realization'.

Hi Andrew: English is a brilliant language, very descriptive, very useful.. most of the 'confusion' i have seen is when the commonly used words and phrases are redefined to fit uncommon or obscure usages.. don't you think the better approach is to rely on the common usage and craft a better phrase describing your beliefs? by doing so, the words and phrases should make more sense to more people..

Be well..

andrew g... Yes, that sounds fine to me, though prior to self-realization there is going to be searching of some kind going on (the nature of the search varies from person to person).

Agreed... :)

andrew g... 'Uncovering' is another word for seeking, searching, looking, working. Its all manipulation.

What I don't understand though is why you equate the words uncovering, seeking, searching, looking, working with the word manipulation? What is it about these words that to you correlates with manipulation in some way?

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by andrew g

I see suffering as the need to effort, work, control and manipulate. I see suffering as the need for approval and security. I see suffering as the need to judge self and the need to place rules and limitations on self.

The opposite of suffering is 'rest'. And a state of rest is a state of trust is a state of grace is a state of allowance is a state of flow is a state of acceptance.

I like much of what Tzu said a page or so back...and on that I think the key is the balance. There is both awareness of separation and connexion. But the great illusion, as many masters have said, is the illusion of separation. The separation is not real. It is simply one of those firmly held beliefs. But the idea of connexion is a "next step" for many and often requires a different perception of existence or reality.

Thus "the balance" for me means one that recognises the integration and simultaneous existence of the individual and the collective.

Andrew, all of what you mention can produce suffering in the usual sense. But then again it may not. And rest does not necessarily alleviate any of those conditions or perceptions. Suffering in the sense of life or experiences that stretch us or force us out of our comfort zone can lead to healing, growth, and can lead us to new depths of strength, courage, and centredness.

I think we'd all like to be in a place of total acceptance and tolerance...or at least a place of greater acceptance and tolerance, LOL... But it won't just happen...since we'd all have to be there first. And realise we're there. It sounds easy but in fact we can't be there until we have healed and shed all our baggage...and that doesn't just happen either. The crysalis exists for a reason.

And these ideal states or modes of acceptance and tolerance can themselves be viewed as "rest" or as "action". We have to both allow for the possibility and realise it...both the concept and the experience...as in by "being" accepting and tolerant. Action is work but it's also necessary for life. Even on a spiritual level, healing, prayer, tonglen, etc., is "work" but not in a burdensome way. More in a way of bringing up the energy. Dare I say sanctifying it?

Peace & blessings
(& cheers all round)
7L

[Gem]

Originally Posted by TzuJanLi

Greetings..

What about the those that affirm the notion that suffering is separation, when i find separation to be quite pleasant? I studied their notion and understand its reasoning, rejected for its single flaw. It rejects the obvious, that existence is both Whole and Separate at the same instant. I have experienced peace in the understanding that there is no limitation to Peace, it is present whether Whole or separate.. to those that understand.

Be well..

I think you probably nailed it right home there man. The ball is outa the park. In my way of seeing there isn't a seperation between the not, the whole and the dual, its more like primary function than different states.

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by TzuJanLi

Greetings..


Hi Andrew: English is a brilliant language, very descriptive, very useful.. most of the 'confusion' i have seen is when the commonly used words and phrases are redefined to fit uncommon or obscure usages.. don't you think the better approach is to rely on the common usage and craft a better phrase describing your beliefs? by doing so, the words and phrases should make more sense to more people..

Be well..

Before I came on this forum I dont recall ever using the concept 'self-realization'. I found the term problematic because it can imply a gaining of an understanding, when it is actually not used by non-dualists to imply a 'gain'. I have got used to the way it is used and I dont feel the need to take it up with non-dualists unless they ARE using it to imply a gain.

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Andrew, all of what you mention can produce suffering in the usual sense. But then again it may not. And rest does not necessarily alleviate any of those conditions or perceptions. Suffering in the sense of life or experiences that stretch us or force us out of our comfort zone can lead to healing, growth, and can lead us to new depths of strength, courage, and centredness.

All of what I mentioned is what I consider 'suffering' to be. The want for approval, control and security. The need to self judge and place limitations on self. The need to work, effort and manipulate. The STATE of 'rest' is the opposite of this. Its a state of effortlessness, allowance, trust, grace, ease, play, joy....

Im not suggesting that suffering is a 'bad' thing as such though. I have no issue with the idea of suffering being part of the soul's learning and experiencing.

I think we'd all like to be in a place of total acceptance and tolerance...or at least a place of greater acceptance and tolerance, LOL... But it won't just happen...since we'd all have to be there first. And realise we're there. It sounds easy but in fact we can't be there until we have healed and shed all our baggage...and that doesn't just happen either. The crysalis exists for a reason.

Some do not require a conscious process of releasing. Eckhart Tolle and Byron Katie are two examples which immediately spring to mind.

And these ideal states or modes of acceptance and tolerance can themselves be viewed as "rest" or as "action". We have to both allow for the possibility and realise it...both the concept and the experience...as in by "being" accepting and tolerant. Action is work but it's also necessary for life. Even on a spiritual level, healing, prayer, tonglen, etc., is "work" but not in a burdensome way. More in a way of bringing up the energy. Dare I say sanctifying it?

Peace & blessings
(& cheers all round)
7L

The state of rest, grace, ease, allowance and trust is actually a state of pure 'action'. A river is in a state of rest yet never gets tired, never needs a break, and is always flowing. We become like that river in a state of rest. The irony of the state of 'being' is that in 'being' there is only 'doing'. But its a 'doing without doing'. A flow in which we are one with the experience.

Realizations are acquisitions.

An acquisition without judgement is neutral.

[Squatchit]

Gracey - I love you.

Stuff the itions and the ments.

Marry me?

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by Wind of Grace

Agreed... :)



What I don't understand though is why you equate the words uncovering, seeking, searching, looking, working with the word manipulation? What is it about these words that to you correlates with manipulation in some way?

Hmmm. Its kind of a strong word I guess. I would say that all efforting is an attempt to control and manipulate energy. An attempt to control and manipulate life. Seeking, searching, looking, working....its all efforting, it comes from an energy of lack in a subtle way rather than an energy of abundance and gratitude for what is.

Im not saying this is bad as such, its the way of life on this earth. Even animals have a program of lack on this earth in which they fight for survival and food. Even the trees fight for life. This earth is currently characterized by an energy of lack. And thats perfect. But life on this planet is not easy.