Something Happens

Greetings..

The reason I dont see free will is because if I see anything, its infinite interconnectivity and infinite inter-relating.

Hi Andrew: Can you explain how interconnectivity excludes freewill?

Be well..

Originally Posted by andrew g

The belief that there is a self to be realized is still just another belief.

Yes, but the one who noticed that is not a belief.

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by TzuJanLi

Greetings..


Hi Andrew: Can you explain how interconnectivity excludes freewill?

Be well..

I can only explain based on the definition of 'free will' that Im going with. I dont see that its possible that any decision can ever be made that is uninfluenced, I dont see that its possible to somehow separate ourselves out from the infinite interconnectivity of life so as to come to an uninfluenced, autonomous, separate decision. All decisions are brought to be by the whole (or the all) because its all infinitely inter-relating. If we look closely we can also see that because life is always moving, it is always in motion, always changing, the idea that we can somehow stop life for a moment to make an autonomous decision makes no sense. Imagine saying to the whole universe, ''Ok. Everything stop so that I can step outside the universe for a moment and look objectively at this and come to a totally neutral and uninfluenced decision''. There IS no objectivity, there is no neutrality, there is only the constant subjective ever changing flow of life which we are part of, and which we are. We dont have the power or ability to make objective 'free' decisions, we make a decision based on where we are, and where the universe as a whole is, at any given moment. We are always essentially doing our best given our situation and given the situation of the universe, because its impossible to do otherwise.

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by Portto

Yes, but the one who noticed that is not a belief.

Yes it is. ''There is one who notices that'' - Its a belief. Its a belief that there IS something TO notice.

But in being 50 you are experiencing finding. In experiencing creative joy as light plays across the room (my experience right now) I am finding this moment. Im not having it...Im finding it.

I dont understand what you mean by having a life? This, as well as the difference that you have noticed within yourself, is perhaps what you have experienced through self realisation. But I have never percieved myself as 'having' a life....so is it that I have always being experiencing...or that I am not self realised?

[sound]

Originally Posted by andrew g

I can only explain based on the definition of 'free will' that Im going with. I dont see that its possible that any decision can ever be made that is uninfluenced, I dont see that its possible to somehow separate ourselves out from the infinite interconnectivity of life so as to come to an uninfluenced, autonomous, separate decision. All decisions are brought to be by the whole (or the all) because its all infinitely inter-relating. If we look closely we can also see that because life is always moving, it is always in motion, always changing, the idea that we can somehow stop life for a moment to make an autonomous decision makes no sense. Imagine saying to the whole universe, ''Ok. Everything stop so that I can step outside the universe for a moment and look objectively at this and come to a totally neutral and uninfluenced decision''. There IS no objectivity, there is no neutrality, there is only the constant subjective ever changing flow of life which we are part of, and which we are. We dont have the power or ability to make objective 'free' decisions, we make a decision based on where we are, and where the universe as a whole is, at any given moment. We are always essentially doing our best given our situation and given the situation of the universe, because its impossible to do otherwise.

andrew would you say we experience freewill within the framework of this physical reality?

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by xxheatherxx

But in being 50 you are experiencing finding. In experiencing creative joy as light plays across the room (my experience right now) I am finding this moment. Im not having it...Im finding it.

I dont understand what you mean by having a life? This, as well as the difference that you have noticed within yourself, is perhaps what you have experienced through self realisation. But I have never percieved myself as 'having' a life....so is it that I have always being experiencing...or that I am not self realised?

If there is no belief in 'one' who turns 50 we dont get to experience turning 50. We dont get to 'experience' full stop. Which doesnt appeal to most people, and which is why most people actually dont want self-realization. Most people like having different experiences. They would rather experience eating a rotten apple than not experence eating an apple at all. So Im NOT saying that self-realization is 'better' as such. I can still see the appeal of having an experience. Its only when we get fed up with the drama involved of having an experience that we are willing to let it go. Many are attached to the drama of achieving self-realization. Essentially self-realization happens when we are tired of the chase.

Most people also talk of 'having a life'. Its a commonly used turn of phrase amongst those who are still 'having an experience'. We talk of OUR existence, of OUR life (that we also have the possibility of losing). Its as if its something we have found and something that can be lost. Again, in self-realization we trade this is. We BECOME life and existence. We ultimately let go of the knowing of ourselves as being alive, and we also let go of the knowing of ourselves as one day possible 'dying'. Death becomes entirely irrelevent. As does life! The best I can say is that in self-realization we are IN knowing of ourselves as being eternal, yet experiencing ourselves AS that through the ever changing temporary form. So there is no experience OF life as such because we are life itself.

This is not easy for me to talk about clearly and without some contradiction.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by andrew g

I would say that in self-realization we know 'mind' to the degree that we become it (this is not the same as identifying with it). In this sense, in self-realization, its ALL mind. There is no attachment to an individual mind.

The belief that there is a self to be realized is still just another belief.

Yes I agree to which I have highlighted.

In response to what I have underlined


This belief thing comes up often doesn’t It.

A Guru requires his disciples to “believe” In his teachings wouldn’t you say without any doubt?

There Is a need to “believe” In the first Instance, otherwise their would be no movement / direction.

To have faith and believe In your master will allow the Individual to enter a mind-set of devotedness / focus.

I would say most definitely a mind-state that Is most helpful In order to kick-start the search.

It’s funny because I cannot Imagine the wisest of Guru’s saying that “I am God” Is a belief. (lol)

I would say though that they are more likely say that they know and believe without a doubt that they are God. (lol)

People will say that’s a belief though....Another one of life’s contradictions I suppose..

x daz x

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by sound

andrew would you say we experience freewill within the framework of this physical reality?

Hi Kate, the more we are attached to our beliefs the more we experience free will i.e. the more we experience ourselves as existing automously and independently. I would say that I still experience free will to some degree though I can see how I experience that - its because there is still some attachment to the belief that I exist autonomously.

So yes, in this physical reality, we experience free will to at least some slight degree I would say.

Greetings..

All decisions are brought to be by the whole (or the all) because its all infinitely inter-relating.

The "whole" is the stage upon which we, as individually manifested and independently functioning versions of that 'whole', co-create our play called Life.. we write the script (choices), and we act-out the play (consequences).. a good analogy is that the 'whole' is the stage and the audience, we/us/Life are the authors and the actors..

I dont see that its possible to somehow separate ourselves out from the infinite interconnectivity of life so as to come to an uninfluenced, autonomous, separate decision.

Well, Andrew.. you are absolutely correct, and completely wrong.. all of existence comes to bear upon each choice we make, eternity influences every thought, and.. nothing prevents us from choosing anything at all..

Be well..