Personalist Buddhists

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

You exist, but it leaves the door to what 'you' are.. The body will stop functioning one day.
Our mind and personality are shaped throughout our life and do not exist by themselves. What is left? What is the 'soul' exactly?

And who is saying ''I am a soul''..??

One might flip that around. What is the body? It is the temporary housing for our eternal spirit. It is the body that is the impermanent part of this partnership of physical & nonphysical body. While the physical body is a big part of our experience while we’re in it & we get used to defining our self by it (gender, race, looks), it is our nonphysical body that is the enduring part of the 2. That is the real us.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by I-Ching

So what you are saying is that when we experience impermanence our individuality becomes impermanent

Oneness and Difference is beautifully illustrated by the symbol of the Taijitu (Ying and Yang)

I think the yin yang is encircled to represent the indivisable nature of existence, and indicates upon the reflection of self that there no place where you end and begin. That little peotic utterence 'am I man dreaming I'm a butterfly or a butterfly dreaming I'm a man?' questions who makes that distinction... and that who makes the distinction also makes the individual distinction, so distinction itself is an individual thing...

Originally Posted by I-Ching

Logically we can understand it as the only part of you that is unchanging. Your body is changing from youth to old age, the mind is always changing, but you the observer of the body and mind is unchanging … eternal.

Imagine if we can exchange somebody's brain with another brain and then little by little change all the body parts. What happens to the observer of the body? Do you think he is going to be the same person?

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by I-Ching
Logically we can understand it as the only part of you that is unchanging. Your body is changing from youth to old age, the mind is always changing, but you the observer of the body and mind is unchanging … eternal.


Says who? Isn't this assumed and therefore considered a belief.
I don't see how it is logical to assume this. In fact I think it is logical to assume that everything, form or formless is in constant flux...but that's me.
Blessings, James

[Chrysaetos]

Originally Posted by I-Ching

You are the soul. The soul is the consciousness in the body, that can neither be created or destroyed. It’s existence is evidenced by much research into Reincarnation and Near-Death experience (If you have any faith in man-made research that is).

Logically we can understand it as the only part of you that is unchanging. Your body is changing from youth to old age, the mind is always changing, but you the observer of the body and mind is unchanging … eternal.

If the 'you' is the soul, then what is this 'you'?

You say consciousness, the part that is unchanging eh.. I wonder where it is when we are in dreamless sleep, knocked out cold, or in a coma..

I disagree that reincarnation is proven. It could be genetic memory or simply wishful thinking. Don't get me wrong,
from a spiritual point of view it is a logical belief, but absolute proof? No, I don't think so.

Originally Posted by WhiteShaman

Says who? Isn't this assumed and therefore considered a belief. I don't see how it is logical to assume this. In fact I think it is logical to assume that everything, form or formless is in constant flux...but that's me. Blessings, James

I like this idea, and I hope life will be an eternal adventure..

Originally Posted by satil

Imagine if we can exchange somebody's brain with another brain and then little by little change all the body parts. What happens to the observer of the body? Do you think he is going to be the same person?

There is much evidence that all the cells in your body are dying ever second and being replaced by new ones. "Scientists" estimate that all the cells in your body have changed after about 7 years; which means that you have a practically different body every 7 years. The only part that is the same is you the soul. You can check this article out http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/topic_3903.html.

A much stronger body of evidence for reincarnation has been gather by many researched particularly Prof Ian Stevenson check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation#Reincarnation_research

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

Don't get me wrong,
from a spiritual point of view it is a logical belief, but absolute proof? No, I don't think so.

It is not possible to have absolute proof of anything! If you understand the philosophy of empiricism, you will know that is an inherently flawed process and can never give you absolute knowledge.

Example: Can you prove that man is mortal? We know that man is mortal by common sense, but perhaps there is an immortal man we just haven't found him yet. You can say you have examined the mortality of every man.

In the same way although every living entity anyone has ever seen comes from another living entity, still the foolish "scientists" proclaim that a living entity can emerge from matter. No one has ever seen such a living entity nor can the scientist produce one. Yet human society has FAITH in this nonsense and their assurances "in the future, in the future, just pay us more money".

[Chrysaetos]

Originally Posted by I-Ching

It is not possible to have absolute proof of anything! If you understand the philosophy of empiricism, you will know that is an inherently flawed process and can never give you absolute knowledge.

Example: Can you prove that man is mortal? We know that man is mortal by common sense, but perhaps there is an immortal man we just haven't found him yet. You can say you have examined the mortality of every man.

In the same way although every living entity anyone has ever seen comes from another living entity, still the foolish "scientists" proclaim that a living entity can emerge from matter. No one has ever seen such a living entity nor can the scientist produce one. Yet human society has FAITH in this nonsense and their assurances "in the future, in the future, just pay us more money".

Are you repeating the words of Prabhupada here? It is strikingly familiar.. ^^

We can observe that bodies decay over time so to suggest there is an immortal man is actually 'foolish'.. of course it can't be proved in the ultimate sense, but if one makes an extraordinary claim (''there is an immortal man'') it is up to that person to prove it..

We can observe life 'emerging' from matter every day. An important question is the actual origins of life,
and whether there is a vitalist substance behind the scenes doing the work (I believe there is..)

Now how did we got here again? It was about *you*, what are you? Unchanging consciousness? Then where are you in the dreamless sleep or in coma's?

My point about the immortal man was analogy to demonstrate the limits of empiricism and you say

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

of course it can't be proved in the ultimate sense

; so my point still stands.

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

We can observe life 'emerging' from matter every day.

Perhaps you could qualify how "we" have observed life emerging from matter. I certainly have never observed such a thing nor has such an observation every been recorded.

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

Then where are you in the dreamless sleep or in coma's?

You not been able to remember your dreams is hardly evidence that your consciousness has ceased. Many Near Death Experiences have been documented where people who where in coma's or who where even clinically dead observed their own bodies and could recall specific details about the medical procedure being performed on them.

[Chrysaetos]

Originally Posted by I-Ching

My point about the immortal man was analogy to demonstrate the limits of empiricism and you say ; so my point still stands.

But.. it does not mean that there is an ''immortal man''.

Originally Posted by I-Ching

Perhaps you could qualify how "we" have observed life emerging from matter. I certainly have never observed such a thing nor has such an observation every been recorded.

It can be observed in the lab, it is called reproduction. There are no souls observed in the process..

Originally Posted by I-Ching

You not been able to remember your dreams is hardly evidence that your consciousness has ceased.

Oh I can remember dreams quite well. But we do not dream all night..

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

It can be observed in the lab, it is called reproduction

Reproduction is the process where one LIVING entity produces another, that is hardly a living entity emerging from dead matter.

"Scientists" claim that life can spontaneous emerge from dead matter and yet such an outlandish claim is based on nothing but FAITH(an irrational faith at that). Although every living entity we've ever seen emerges from another living entity.

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

But we do not dream all night

According to the Vedas at night the subtle body leaves the gross body and travels in the astral plane. NDE's give evidence that this is possible. Your argument has no basis besides your own opinion about what happens to you when you sleep. Hardly convincing.