Hard to love others? Been lied to and betrayed? Step right up...let's help each other

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Emm

That "disconnect" seems to go against the grain of our true spiritual nature...which I guess we feel as pain.

What about 'the pain' that Jesus felt as he was being crucified even thought he maintained 'spiritual connection' with his crucifiers (as evidenced by his sayin "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do).

[Emm]

Originally Posted by davidsun

What about 'the pain' that Jesus felt as he was being crucified even thought he maintained 'spiritual connection' with his crucifiers (as evidenced by his sayin "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do).

We can't really say with certainty what Jesus was feeling at the time although with that quote it seems it wasn't emotional pain... he wasn't setting himself apart from his persecutors.

Having said that, I can't myself bring religion in to my spiritual journey, I used to, but beliefs for me are not enough to get me through the day, there needs to be some experiential evidence that I can work with. That's just me, I don't hold it against anyone who finds peace and enlightenment this way.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Baile

Thank you. My compassion has been expanding .....

Yeah, all the nice things you do are just part of the way love is shown.
You can be kind to the homeless person...but not want to have a romantic love for him...
Hahaha

But, what about when a coworker slights you in a big way...that's when the
tires hit the pavement....or the brother steals from your disabled dad...
we need insights and help on how to let that stuff go and remain clear and
kind...I mean that is what our insides really want...we really want to be saints. Why is it so hard to be sometimes...!
Unforgiveness and grudges suck.

Influenced by what peteyzen said, find out what in us is effected...and why...really why...
what in us is feeling 'upset'.

I mean, why is it we could forgive our daughter for exactly what a coworker did, that upset us big time?

I believe that application of forgiveness and compassion
should be for the stranger that does a 'wrong' thing.


*Dissociating from the ego....bingo!
Anytime 'I' get mad=ego!
Or hurt or jealous or prideful or selfish or greedy or lazy...I mean if our thoughts are unkind...
it is the ego talkin'...not the Higher Self/the saint in you/God/the Holy Spirit's Thought System...I say.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by davidsun

What about 'the pain' that Jesus felt as he was being crucified even thought he maintained 'spiritual connection' with his crucifiers (as evidenced by his sayin "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do).

I know, right? That's the template!
A friend, ha, a Psychiatrist, felt shame and was embarrassed around me over something he did ...
I laughed and said, "If Jesus can forgive Peter, ha! I can forgive you!"LOL.
It was dropped. (And it was kinda bad!)
But not as bad as to deny Jesus THREE xs!

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Emm

We can't really say with certainty what Jesus was feeling at the time...

On that topic, this is very interesting, but now, I can't seem to
remember where I read it...I mean Jesus still talks to people...
so it may have been
in the book by Glenda Green, 'Love Without End', I bet.

Jesus talks about the eye contact with the man who hit the nail into one hand
and in that moment the soldier 'got it'...can't rem what 'it' is....but that there
was a role he had to play and all was perfect...and he saw deeply into Jesus, a lot was transmitted, iow.
Now, in diff incarnations, he has been a great,
wise teacher here many times...an advanced soul.

[Miss Hepburn]

Our Abusers...I just read about some tough childhoods on another thread.

How do we forgive and let go of the past?
Or how do we re-frame what happened to us?

Understand it, see what was going on there? And thus, have it completely resolved?

[Emm]

Originally Posted by davidsun

It becomes easier and easier to have 'compassion', 'understanding', 'kindness' etc. from a 'place' of richness/wholeness/happiness. One may then be able to 'identify' with (like actors who get 'into' playing villainous 'roles') and so 'love' others despite what may be thought of as their 'evil' motives. But this takes the kind of detachment that comes from 'seeing' everything that goes on in this world as just being a 'play' or a 'movie' - and so is not suitable for anyone who is deeply engaged with wanting, ikn a feeling way, the 'world' to be a 'better' place, one without so much 'hurt'/'betrayal' etc.

I think you could be right here...its all to do with how much we identify with the ego I guess. The problem may not be with the person who caused us harm but with how connected we are to our own essence. Being in a place of equilibrium it wouldn't matter what anyone did to us, we couldn't be affected. Forgiveness wouldn't be necessary as no offence was taken.

In that case for us mere mortals who still seek to find a forgiving nature within ourselves its more a case of personal inner work of connecting with our greater self rather than projecting the blame onto the perpetrators who caused us harm. In the bigger picture maybe these are reminders of how far we have come and how much work we still have to do.

In that case davidsun your quote I previously dismissed is very apt here...I apologise

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Our Abusers...I just read about some tough childhoods on another thread.

How do we forgive and let go of the past?
Or how do we re-frame what happened to us?

Understand it, see what was going on there? And thus, have it completely resolved?

I've spent a lot of time working through what I experienced as a child. Some of it is still so fresh in my mind as though it literally happened yesterday and I still wince sometimes because of the physical pain. The child that wept in the dark.

I can't change the past but I can change how I feel about it, in the present our perceptions of the past create our futures. I've also spent a lot of time going through Life reviews, spending time thinking about what happened and how I've changed as a result, which has obviously changed others in turn. The abuse gave me compassion and forgiveness, as well as saving me from becoming a spoiled brat. I think we need to put our pasts into context not of 'woe is me' but in how it's played its part in making us 'us', and what's happened as a result. Just a single spark of not reacting in kind to someone who is acting out of fear, of lack, of perhaps even crying out and only being able to express it in being hateful towards you. That spark carries from one to the other, passed on and passed on.

Nothing happens TO us and everything happens BECAUSE of us, that's quite a distinction to make and a very different understanding to come to. Forgiveness, empathy, sympathy, Love.... If we want Christ Consciousness we'd better get our sleeves rolled up.


We don't turn our hurts into halos.

[Starman]

As seemingly a separate consciousness, all human beings on earth are in various stages of mental and emotional development, as well as spiritual development, and in my opinion, all of the stages of human development, regardless how painful, arrogant, abusive, or loving, serve a greater, more connective, consciousness. Hopefully, most human beings will go from a coarse existence to a more finer quality.

Keeping in mind where the human race is coming from, in the past sending children, ten and eleven year olds, to fight in wars, wars where we stuck spears and swords in each other, bludgeon each other to death, burned people to a stake for not believing as we did, enslaved people, and treated females like they were the play things of males, young girls; children pregnant with children, among many, many, other dastardly things.

The human race is coming from a place where we used to inflict pain and suffering on people for fun. An today lots of people think that is in our past, but it is not. We have become more of what we like to think of as civilized, but lots of human beings are still, seemingly stuck, in a more egocentric behavior. A behavior that while not as demonstrative on the outside, is still similar to living in the dark ages of the past.

Most people on earth are controlled by their thoughts and emotions, instead of them having a better grasp of their own thoughts and emotions. Subsequently, there is a very fragile fine line between what may be considered sanity and insanity. It is this perspective that informs my compassion. Because I was once there myself; living in the land of pain and insanity.

On a deeper level, we are all still growing, but while our evolution may be a valid reason for today‘s ills, it is not an excuse. Although there are many who are suffering today, who don’t even know that they are suffering, because they have never really experienced love. The saying “been down so long it seems like up to me;” is a statement about when suffering becomes normalized.

But I do have hope, and I am inspired by my own journey of going from darkness to light, and the journey of so many others I’ve encountered who have done the same. Time, as measured on Earth, often clouds our thinking, but I am of the belief that spiritual evolution is automatic, and there is more innate evolution going on inside of us then there is on the outside of us. It is just a matter of building a compassionate conscience from what insights we may acquire from looking into our own being.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

I know, right? That's the template!
A friend, ha, a Psychiatrist, felt shame and was embarrassed around me over something he did ...
I laughed and said, "If Jesus can forgive Peter, ha! I can forgive you!"LOL.
It was dropped. (And it was kinda bad!)
But not as bad as to deny Jesus THREE xs!

Using Jesus life sayings and actions as a 'template' or 'model' of an advanced (perfected?) soul:

Re-member: He (supposedly at least) said: "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. ... Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."

A 'key' factor here, of course, being whether or not a person is sincere in his or her 'acknowledgment' of 'fault' and 'seeking' of 'forgiveness'. He didn't just 'forgive' Willy-nilly!

It may also be worth registering the true (as opposed to 'white'-washed) significance of his trashing the money-changers tables and saying judgmental, one might say 'angry' even, things like: "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" and " woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them. Then answered one of the lawyers, and said unto him, Master, thus saying thou reproachest us also. And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers. Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres."

Remember: He advocated rejecting (i.e. not welcoming and 'embracing', i.e. em-brace-ing) folks who remained unrepentant after being confronted with their 'wrong'doings, as implicit in his saying: "let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican." in the first quote above.

"Mercy," maybe, but "Forgivenness", "Compassion", and "Kindness" ain't an always necessarily 'good' (i.e. Life-serving) things to aspire to feel, show and/or 'do', IOW.