Particle-Wave Duality Theory

[Shivani Devi]

Hi there. Just speculatin' and have a few incomplete thoughts just loose - crashing into acetylcholine receptors...so I don't know how logical this is all going to sound...

Everything around us, either within or without the visible spectrum is influenced by light, in either static or dynamic form.

Mass/Matter is only the interplay between Energy and the Speed of Light, as Einstein stated...

Now, seeing as how photons of light can appear to travel as a 'waveform' or as a 'quanta' (packet of photons) according to which ever way it's being looked at...at the time, thanks to Mr Schrodinger and his famous cat..

If Everything is made up of photons in whatever state they are in, is it only natural that some would perceive the world as 'reality' and some as 'illusion' according to this?

Now, according to the whole thing, light can travel as both, so what aspect are we looking here at the time?

I realise we can't see individual photons or down to that level, but maybe what I am saying is that maybe matter has two states of being, a permanent and an impermanent one?

Is it the whole nature of man to see 'reality' as an expression of one aspect of light at the time of looking? i.e...gross = quanta and subtle = wave in the dual sense, leaving the 'Schrodinger's cat' theory the expression of the Divine...the Absolute...Brahman in quantum terms.

What say the audience? thank you.

[Starman]

Currently there is wave theory and particle theory, and probably other theories as well. I embrace that sound is the first matter, or material thing to manifest, as in the beginning was the word, i.e. sound, this is also depicted by Sufis and their whirling dervishes. Because sound whirling at high frequency, in my opinion, created light, and light refracted as in a prism created the illusion of physical existence. The illusion has duality because it is a refraction of light. But it is mainly an illusion because it is illusive, always changing like a kaleidoscopic revolving firebrand. Change is constant in this physical existence; a dance of shadow and light.

In sound all things take their birth and in silence all things dissolve. There is something beyond light which I don’t think the human mind is capable of grasping. Scientists have found that there is one particle which permeates all of existence and they call that particle “the God particle,” or Higgs Boson. Even before this discovery it was known that hydrogen is the most abundant chemical in the universe. My point is that below the surface there is one thing which can be found everywhere and science is just now coming to acknowledge a universal substance. A substance which ancient yogis and others acknowledged, by another name, a very long time ago.

I embrace that there are many realms, and what we call “physical” is but a collective perception. Every realm is spiritual as spirit, or energy, or consciousness, is the universal stuff that is present everywhere. Everything that exists is an adaptation of what has already existed, and anything which will exist in the future will grow out of what currently exists. “It is not the strongest which survives but the most adaptable,” i.e. the cockroach. Everything is an extension of everything else; everything comes out of everything else, and goes back into everything else. In my opinion its’ like breathing on a grand cosmic level.

[organic born]

Originally Posted by Starman

I embrace that there are many realms, and what we call “physical” is but a collective perception. Every realm is spiritual as spirit, or energy, or consciousness, is the universal stuff that is present everywhere. Everything that exists is an adaptation of what has already existed, and anything which will exist in the future will grow out of what currently exists.

All of this was beautifully written Starman!

We can intellectually suggest what you've suggested above but what do you think would be the tools to explore such diversity-in-complexity as you've mentioned? It's hard to use science because it's limited to the physicality of the people who construct science. Once we attempt to step beyond our senses then we're kinda in a pinch when it comes to exploring much further. I have a few ideas of my own but I'm curious as to what you've discovered so far? What methods are you using to extend just beyond this current experience of purely physical perceptions?

[Starman]

Originally Posted by organic born

All of this was beautifully written Starman!

We can intellectually suggest what you've suggested above but what do you think would be the tools to explore such diversity-in-complexity as you've mentioned? It's hard to use science because it's limited to the physicality of the people who construct science. Once we attempt to step beyond our senses then we're kinda in a pinch when it comes to exploring much further. I have a few ideas of my own but I'm curious as to what you've discovered so far? What methods are you using to extend just beyond this current experience of purely physical perceptions?

There are some who have bridged the gap between science and spirituality, Deepak Chopra for one. He uses the language of science to describe spirituality. I am hopeful that science and spirituality will one day be on the same page. The problem is that science is steadfast in the belief of objective reality; things which can be observed and measured; while spirituality is highly subjective an un-measurable. Spiritual people are steadfast in the “personal” nature of their experience.

I have studied and practiced eastern mystical practices, mainly yoga and meditation, and also western mystical practices, mainly Kabalah and metaphysics. An I have tried to blend the two, as in my opinion yoga is to the east what alchemy is to the west. In studying the world’s religions I looked for the commonalities between religions and not just their differences, and it amazed me how much the major umbrella religions, or most populated religions; Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Islam, have in common. Indeed, each of these religions grew from either another religion or spiritual group, and have splintered into various denominations or sects which we have today.

The scientific principle of course is the normal curve where things come into being, rise, and then fall, but they don’t really fall, rather they transform, or morph into something else. Scientists believe that all the water that ever was is her now; which means that the water which existed five thousand years ago is the same water which exists today. Water is recycled by nature into either a fluid, gas, or solid, but nonetheless, it is still the same H2O. We try to improve on that water by bottling it, making it into beer or kool aid, an adaptation.

Whatever technology we develop is an extension of ourselves; cars are an extension of our legs, or more correctly our ability to travel, computers our ability to think and communicate, etc., and the computer industry has built on what it previously achieved. Everything is an adaptation of everything else and everything gives birth to everything else. We live in a highly reactive world where most human beings live their entire life continuously reacting to something, or making adaptations to what is.

[shivatar]

Matter is matter, what our brain percieves is different than what reality truely is. In this way you are trying to create distinction between two sides of the same yin yang.

Another way of saying, your brain cannot handle the CPU of true reality, it creates little bundles of pertainent information, some people call them illusion but it's all good. The truth is stranger than fiction, but I hope you find the answers you seek. Mine is intended to ease your desire to look deeply, as I see this is causing you great mental suffering, so if you want to find out a different answer to reality simply ignore me and continue onward. The fruits of great suffering are really sweet.

[shivatar]

Originally Posted by Starman

Currently there is wave theory and particle theory, and probably other theories as well. I embrace that sound is the first matter, or material thing to manifest, as in the beginning was the word, i.e. sound, this is also depicted by Sufis and their whirling dervishes. Because sound whirling at high frequency, in my opinion, created light, and light refracted as in a prism created the illusion of physical existence. The illusion has duality because it is a refraction of light. But it is mainly an illusion because it is illusive, always changing like a kaleidoscopic revolving firebrand. Change is constant in this physical existence; a dance of shadow and light.

In sound all things take their birth and in silence all things dissolve. There is something beyond light which I don’t think the human mind is capable of grasping. Scientists have found that there is one particle which permeates all of existence and they call that particle “the God particle,” or Higgs Boson. Even before this discovery it was known that hydrogen is the most abundant chemical in the universe. My point is that below the surface there is one thing which can be found everywhere and science is just now coming to acknowledge a universal substance. A substance which ancient yogis and others acknowledged, by another name, a very long time ago.

I embrace that there are many realms, and what we call “physical” is but a collective perception. Every realm is spiritual as spirit, or energy, or consciousness, is the universal stuff that is present everywhere. Everything that exists is an adaptation of what has already existed, and anything which will exist in the future will grow out of what currently exists. “It is not the strongest which survives but the most adaptable,” i.e. the cockroach. Everything is an extension of everything else; everything comes out of everything else, and goes back into everything else. In my opinion its’ like breathing on a grand cosmic level.

However elaborate your answer for reality, it only need be "good enough" for your satisfaction. Looking so deeply and clearly is truly impressive, but since you often say "in my opinion", and lack clarity on the higher truths of reality, my guess is you are like the oringinal poster and your search for answers is only bringing you suffering right now. You can debate it all you like, but in me experts opinion.... you ought to find a way to find the "good enough" answer, that way you can continue onwards in your growth.

Intellectual understanding of the universe is like, step 1, 2, and 3, and there are about 7+ steps. Unless you want to elaborate and learn about these subjects for your career or during this life, and I tell you now it will bring great mental suffering as well as MAYBE some notoriety or wealth, can never tell, I'd say just drop the pursuit, get some spirutal growth, and tackle these issues at a later date.

Realize your answers are formed in the "describe the universe for others" way, but they are for you essentially, and that if you want to you can let them go, this continues spiritual growth past intellectual growth.

To beat mind, use faith, and seek good enough answers. Realize the answer is for you, to ease your rapid mind, and seek the good enough, or you will be never-endingly plagued by the inability to answer lives greatest questions. Which are unanswerable by intellect alone.

Also, I hear you sampling a lot of everything. But how many times have you become devoted? really pledged your life to service, if only in intention, or if only for a year, if you really pledged you would feel something. it's the intent behind the spiritual actions, not the actions or traditions that have the effect. Think of Michaelangelo and the Sisteen chapel, we must reach out to touch God halfway.

[Shivani Devi]

I'm not searching for answers, but more like trying to reflect upon certain thoughts and experiences I'm trying to share. I'm not suffering or in any negative way due to any of this.

I guess I am questioning the very nature of perception itself, in light of awareness, which is probably a very silly thing to do. lol

What I am proposing, is that if the properties of light are subject to our own perceptions of them, is Schrodinger's Cat alive or dead? Did they ever get to figure that one out?

If it is 'both' or even 'neither' then that negates the whole properties of light...

[wstein]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

Everything around us, either within or without the visible spectrum is influenced by light, in either static or dynamic form.

If Everything is made up of photons in whatever state they are in, is it only natural that some would perceive the world as 'reality' and some as 'illusion' according to this?

Actually matter is made up of a few dozen or so fundamental particles, photons are only one of them. Most of those other types of particles do not interact with light (electromagnetism).
http://physics.info/standard/practice.shtml

[wstein]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

Now, seeing as how photons of light can appear to travel as a 'waveform' or as a 'quanta' (packet of photons) according to which ever way it's being looked at...at the time, thanks to Mr Schrodinger and his famous cat..

If Everything is made up of photons in whatever state they are in, is it only natural that some would perceive the world as 'reality' and some as 'illusion' according to this?

Now, according to the whole thing, light can travel as both, so what aspect are we looking here at the time?

I realise we can't see individual photons or down to that level, but maybe what I am saying is that maybe matter has two states of being, a permanent and an impermanent one?

Is it the whole nature of man to see 'reality' as an expression of one aspect of light at the time of looking? i.e...gross = quanta and subtle = wave in the dual sense, leaving the 'Schrodinger's cat' theory the expression of the Divine...the Absolute...Brahman in quantum terms.

The wave duality issue is one the world's greatest scientists still struggle with.

In my humble view, the waves are physical reality. The particles are information. Scientists confuse themselves by 'measuring' things during experiments. Measuring is the very process if obtaining information about something. But trying to quantize something that is not fundamentally made of quanta is never going to be 'accurate'. It's going to give misleading results.

My interpretation of the 'famous cat' experiment is that the cat is dead or alive. What is uncertain is your information about the health of the cat. To you it could be dead or alive and until you 'look' you don't have that information. In other words, the longer you don't have means of measuring (cat is hidden by box in this example) the more your information is uncertain (is the cat dead or alive). At some point you can't tell one way or the other.

This is all an artifact of the mind which deals with information not reality.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by shivatar

However elaborate your answer for reality, it only need be "good enough" for your satisfaction. Looking so deeply and clearly is truly impressive, but since you often say "in my opinion", and lack clarity on the higher truths of reality, my guess is you are like the oringinal poster and your search for answers is only bringing you suffering right now. You can debate it all you like, but in me experts opinion.... you ought to find a way to find the "good enough" answer, that way you can continue onwards in your growth.

Intellectual understanding of the universe is like, step 1, 2, and 3, and there are about 7+ steps. Unless you want to elaborate and learn about these subjects for your career or during this life, and I tell you now it will bring great mental suffering as well as MAYBE some notoriety or wealth, can never tell, I'd say just drop the pursuit, get some spirutal growth, and tackle these issues at a later date.

Realize your answers are formed in the "describe the universe for others" way, but they are for you essentially, and that if you want to you can let them go, this continues spiritual growth past intellectual growth.

To beat mind, use faith, and seek good enough answers. Realize the answer is for you, to ease your rapid mind, and seek the good enough, or you will be never-endingly plagued by the inability to answer lives greatest questions. Which are unanswerable by intellect alone.

Also, I hear you sampling a lot of everything. But how many times have you become devoted? really pledged your life to service, if only in intention, or if only for a year, if you really pledged you would feel something. it's the intent behind the spiritual actions, not the actions or traditions that have the effect. Think of Michaelangelo and the Sisteen chapel, we must reach out to touch God halfway.

I think you have misinterpreted me and judged me from your interpretation of what I wrote. I am definitely not looking for any answers and I am completely satisfied with my life; there is no suffering in my life. You seem to be judging people here, and your judgements are incorrect. We are just having a discussion and nothing more. Do you know what this particular area of the forum is all about? It is about Science & Spirituality, and that is what we are discussing. You know nothing about me or my spiritual experiences. Yes, I have devoted myself to selfless service as a healthcare worker and social worker for more than forty years, and I am very much aware of the nature of intellect and some of the other things you have mentioned. You are making a lot of assumptions about me and others, but I truly forgive you. Namaste