Reality Is Not As It Seems

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Yes on the face of it what u say can be reality . But what would you say / make of innumerable other beliefs people have in psychology , politics ,eugenics , anthropology ,economics, romance/dating - many of which are/can be fancies and fantasies and lots of material being written & read day in day out . Not all ideas of all these areas are truth/factual helping readers . How do u address them . Do u think there is need for advice/re-look in these areas as well or just these are just divine/pristinely designed and there is no need for review.

Well you would need to define " pristine and divine" for me so that I better understand the question.

but until you do I will assume you are referring to a level of created "thing/concept/ belief" that comes from an "all Creator/ most high god" and is Flawless in its design only showing signs of flaw or failure due to the hands of imperfect men but it in of itself is flawless?

If so my answer that is no information that exists in this social construct based world we live in even comes close to meeting the standards of said definition of and likewise should not be blindly followed or Taken as the final word on anything .

Sheep do sheep stuff cats do cat things and so just like your friends cat can have a quirky habit that your cat has despite the fact neither cat has ever met each other simply because cats do cat things and being the same species they have tendencies that are alike just like they look alike and so likewise humans have tendencies that are alike and predictable

Originally Posted by MAYA EL

...
Sheep do sheep stuff cats do cat things and so just like your friends cat can have a quirky habit that your cat has despite the fact neither cat has ever met each other simply because cats do cat things and being the same species they have tendencies that are alike just like they look alike and so likewise humans have tendencies that are alike and predictable

There is an underlying uniformity and logic within the structure of the universe and it's forms - out of which comes great diversity.

It is a paradox.

Lots of talk about what is wrong with 'the universe', and what could or should be done to fix it (at least as far as mankind is concerned anyway). Yet consider the possibility that 'the universe' is actually perfect and exactly the way it should be in this present moment. There is an enormous diversity of what we might call 'good and evil', including great diversity between us on what we each consider 'good and evil'. Even all the angst about what is wrong and what should be done to fix the universe, is also part of that vast diversity that is part of a system that is perfect in its total expression. Do any of us know with any real authority what is good or what is evil, or what is wrong with the universe, or the society of mankind, and how to fix it?

Krishna's instruction to Arjuna was to go ahead and fight his war. His instruction more generally was to go ahead and live ones life as best one can, fully aware and accepting that one can not really know, and therefore cannot really claim ownership of, the fruits of ones actions. But in all things, to keep ones mind on God (Krishna in this story, but one can substitute any concept they like), as that is where all of this exploration in the lands of good and evil, cause and effect, will lead back to. In fact, I expect that it is where we all already are, only we just don't know it well enough to recognize it.

Before GPS, I used find my way home by knowing the general direction of where my destination was. I would travel along country roads turning toward that general direction whenever it seemed like a good idea. Sometimes I would turn onto a road and it would curve in the wrong direction and I would be stuck following it until the next time it branched again in the direction I wanted to go. It was not the most efficient way to get home, but I eventually got there, and I really enjoyed seeing all the things I would not otherwise have seen if I followed the shortest rout along the major highways on the map. Over time, I really got to know the lay of the land that way, got a feel of what it was all about and how it fit together. At first I would be rather lost until I started recognizing familiar things near home. Eventually more and more of the landscape became known and familiar to me, and what felt like 'home' expanded more and more.

All paths through this life branch again and again and again, and nobody ever really knows whether right or left is the best direction to take. Yet if we have some idea of the destination we are seeking, and know the direction we wish to go, then over time we make our way there. The different journeys we end up taking to get there, arrive along with us, and color our view and understanding of that destination. Two travelers who take different paths never really arrive at the same destination. The more one travels about on the different paths, the less they feel lost when traveling about.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

It seems to me both you and Daz are operating purely from an egoic intellectual perspective. That is both of you are caught up in the dream, not recognizing you are actually one and the same Dreamer as am I.

I've explained it quite clearly using the analogy of a lucid dream but let's try it one more time.

When becoming lucid in dream reality one realizes one is not the dream body but the dreamer. The dream body, all other dream bodies, the landscape, buildings, roads, cars, everything are but appearances within the dreamer. They are all within the dreamer and of the dreamer. It's all one, the dreamer.

Realization is the exact same thing but in waking reality. One is not the mind-body but Existence Consciousness Bliss where the mind-body, other mind-bodies, animals, trees, insects, mountains, lakes, oceans, clouds, planets, starts, galaxies appear within. It all, all of it, appears in the One Consciousness and is also of the One Consciousness. There is no separation, hence no need of unifying because it's already One. That's Realization.

Any concept or impression of a separate and individual ego/I/thinker is part of the illusion, Maya's power to veil.

And no, it's not conceptual for me. I've been there, experienced it and intensely for several weeks. It's faded a bit but hasn't totally evaporated. I don't think or believe it to be true, I know it to be true and from the perspective of direct experience.

We all operate purely through our ego, mind and body to a certian degree intellectually/intelligently or not, you included. You operating in this forum via your ego. The ego uses words to communicate.

Dreams/lucid dreams are a bad example. Dreams/lucid dreams are not real/an illusion, a product of the ego/I/individual, which you think is an illusion, and is your ego, which you think is unreal/an illusion fooling itself. You sure can't know your ego/I is fooling itself and keeping itself busy, when you think the ego is not real/an illusion, so round and round in circles your ego/I goes fooling itself non-stop, and I find that to be quite ironic because it is the ignorant, ignorant of the the ignorance.

Yes, non-duality is conceptual to you because non-duality and duality are nothing but concepts of your ego/I/individual ( which you call unreal and an illusion) that separates and divides. You calling your ego/I/individual unreal and an illusion is what separates and divides your ego/I/individual from atman, which is your inner brahman. Again it is the ignorant, ignorant of the the ignorance.

You may have experienced it inside your head subjectively/abstractly based on false beliefs, misinformation, dogma and etc, because you do not believe in the intellect/intellegence, but it is obvious you did not experience it personally and individually, (without any outside help from guru's, teachers, sages, flying pigs, illusory dreams, since according to you individuality and the intellect and itellegence are illusions) outside of yourself, with your consciousness/awareness in the right here and now.

BTW, Since you negate the intellect, you negate intelligence, because our creator/brahman operates it's intelligence through our intellect so we are able to know what are false beliefs, dogma, b-s, mental and emotional conditioning and etc. Without the intellect, we would all be slaves and/or manipulated, mind controlled etc etc.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by ketzer

Lots of talk about what is wrong with 'the universe', and what could or should be done to fix it (at least as far as mankind is concerned anyway). Yet consider the possibility that 'the universe' is actually perfect and exactly the way it should be in this present moment. There is an enormous diversity of what we might call 'good and evil', including great diversity between us on what we each consider 'good and evil'. Even all the angst about what is wrong and what should be done to fix the universe, is also part of that vast diversity that is part of a system that is perfect in its total expression. Do any of us know with any real authority what is good or what is evil, or what is wrong with the universe, or the society of mankind, and how to fix it?

Krishna's instruction to Arjuna was to go ahead and fight his war. His instruction more generally was to go ahead and live ones life as best one can, fully aware and accepting that one can not really know, and therefore cannot really claim ownership of, the fruits of ones actions. But in all things, to keep ones mind on God (Krishna in this story, but one can substitute any concept they like), as that is where all of this exploration in the lands of good and evil, cause and effect, will lead back to. In fact, I expect that it is where we all already are, only we just don't know it well enough to recognize it.

Before GPS, I used find my way home by knowing the general direction of where my destination was. I would travel along country roads turning toward that general direction whenever it seemed like a good idea. Sometimes I would turn onto a road and it would curve in the wrong direction and I would be stuck following it until the next time it branched again in the direction I wanted to go. It was not the most efficient way to get home, but I eventually got there, and I really enjoyed seeing all the things I would not otherwise have seen if I followed the shortest rout along the major highways on the map. Over time, I really got to know the lay of the land that way, got a feel of what it was all about and how it fit together. At first I would be rather lost until I started recognizing familiar things near home. Eventually more and more of the landscape became known and familiar to me, and what felt like 'home' expanded more and more.

All paths through this life branch again and again and again, and nobody ever really knows whether right or left is the best direction to take. Yet if we have some idea of the destination we are seeking, and know the direction we wish to go, then over time we make our way there. The different journeys we end up taking to get there, arrive along with us, and color our view and understanding of that destination. Two travelers who take different paths never really arrive at the same destination. The more one travels about on the different paths, the less they feel lost when traveling about.

A person who thinks the universe and everything in the universe is unreal/an illusion, will never consider the possibility that the universe is actually perfect and exactly the way it should be in this present moment. And this is part of the problem.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by MAYA EL

Well you would need to define " pristine and divine" for me so that I better understand the question.

In this context consider 'Pristine and divine' take it as 'infallible flawless written in stone'. As spiritual belief may with a flaw or illusion so can many other beliefs (coming from various backgrounds stated earlier) too can be . But that does not entail people stopping believing/reading/writing/practising in those beliefs .

Originally Posted by MAYA EL

If so my answer that is no information that exists in this social construct based world we live in even comes close to meeting the standards of said definition of and likewise should not be blindly followed or Taken as the final word on anything .

Agreed but that does not just apply to spiritual belief . That also applies to dogmas and beliefs in other spheres of human activities as well . Do u go and point to all those people . Is there any bias against spirituality . You can examine that yourself.

Re diversity stated by Kioma , there is absolutely no opposition to diversity. In this connection my observation is one to many and many to one is the way of manifestation . If you see success or failure anywhere in human history/any sphere , wherever people have knowingly/ unknowingly followed this construct and have met with success and otherwise have met with failure lacking to observe this construct of manifestation .

Even after following these constructs , there is ample diversity and that really can only be appreciated and respected for what it is .

Re analogy of travel back to home pointed out by kertzer , I appreciate the point . However in that also he enjoys the journey back home because
1. he has general sense of direction (east/west/north/south)
2. he has general sense of locations /geography where he travels
3. there are lots of signboards & directions everywhere he goes .
4. He has maps or GPS and skill to read/understand it .

If he did not had these basic stuff , u can imagine how nightmarish experience he may have reaching back home.

Now whatever we discuss in this forum is only about all these basic things .
It's not about specific dos /don'ts /actions /rituals etc . All these discussions are mere to arrive at some basic understandings .

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

In this context consider 'Pristine and divine' take it as 'infallible flawless written in stone'. As spiritual belief may with a flaw or illusion so can many other beliefs (coming from various backgrounds stated earlier) too can be . But that does not entail people stopping believing/reading/writing/practising in those beliefs .


Agreed but that does not just apply to spiritual belief . That also applies to dogmas and beliefs in other spheres of human activities as well . Do u go and point to all those people . Is there any bias against spirituality . You can examine that yourself.

Re diversity stated by Kioma , there is absolutely no opposition to diversity. In this connection my observation is one to many and many to one is the way of manifestation . If you see success or failure anywhere in human history/any sphere , wherever people have knowingly/ unknowingly followed this construct and have met with success and otherwise have met with failure lacking to observe this construct of manifestation .

Even after following these constructs , there is ample diversity and that really can only be appreciated and respected for what it is .

Re analogy of travel back to home pointed out by kertzer , I appreciate the point . However in that also he enjoys the journey back home because
1. he has general sense of direction (east/west/north/south)
2. he has general sense of locations /geography where he travels
3. there are lots of signboards & directions everywhere he goes .
4. He has maps or GPS and skill to read/understand it .

If he did not had these basic stuff , u can imagine how nightmarish experience he may have reaching back home.

Now whatever we discuss in this forum is only about all these basic things .
It's not about specific dos /don'ts /actions /rituals etc . All these discussions are mere to arrive at some basic understandings .

Ahh ok I understand now what you were asking me.

No I do not have any specific biased against spiritual belief.

Yes I do agree with you that it applies to things in the physical world as well.

And yes I do go and point to all those people. Remember for everything physical there's a spiritual and vice versa so it is a two-way street and on a two-way street it hardly makes sense to only sell lemonade the people on one side of the street and not the other

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by MAYA EL

Ahh ok I understand now what you were asking me.

No I do not have any specific biased against spiritual belief.

Yes I do agree with you that it applies to things in the physical world as well.

And yes I do go and point to all those people. Remember for everything physical there's a spiritual and vice versa so it is a two-way street and on a two-way street it hardly makes sense to only sell lemonade the people on one side of the street and not the other

Hi thanks for open and unbiased views . Very much appreciated .

Not sure who is selling just lemonade on the 2 way street (with clear rule based demarcation of line and where to orient in either direction ) only on one side . While there is definite case for selling lemonade (with all kinds of drinks one may wish) on either side , there may multiple reasons why one may sell lemonade only on one side.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

A person who thinks the universe and everything in the universe is unreal/an illusion, will never consider the possibility that the universe is actually perfect and exactly the way it should be in this present moment. And this is part of the problem.

Excellent point. The Kabbalistic Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan once wrote an intriguing essay, "If you were God", and guides one to the conclusion that the universe may actually be more perfect that most would even suspect.

https://www.aish.com/sp/ph/48970646.html

Originally Posted by MikeS80

A person who thinks the universe and everything in the universe is unreal/an illusion, will never consider the possibility that the universe is actually perfect and exactly the way it should be in this present moment. And this is part of the problem.

Saying something is an illusion does not imply that it is unreal. An illusion only means that something is not as it appears to be to us. The fact that the physical reality we experience is an illusion is a scientific fact proven many times over. The question is, what then is it that underlies that reality we are perceiving. As we dig down in scale, what science shows us is an ever deepening series of illusions of perceptions until everything we regard as real is seen to be made up of things that are not considered physically real by the more common definition of the word.

'Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real.' Niels Bohr.

Everything in the physical universe is an illusion, but that does not make it unreal. What it does mean, IMO, is that what we call reality is made up of illusions, representations of information constructed by us within our own consciousness. There is no 'real' 'stuff' making up physical reality. The illusions are our realities.

So I see no such problem as the one you speak of.