Rumi

I live in Turkey where Rumi lived...

People here think he is a muslim.

But this poem by Rumi clearly indicates that he refuses Islam (the red part of the poem).

“I searched for God among the Christians and on the Cross and therein I found Him not.
I went into the ancient temples of idolatry; no trace of Him was there.
I entered the mountain cave of Hira and then went as far as Qandhar but God I found not.
With set purpose I fared to the summit of Mount Caucasus and found there only 'anqa's habitation.
Then I directed my search to the Kaaba, the resort of old and young; God was not there even.
Turning to philosophy I inquired about him from ibn Sina but found Him not within his range.
I fared then to the scene of the Prophet's experience of a great divine manifestation only a "two bow-lengths' distance from him" but God was not there even in that exalted court.
Finally, I looked into my own heart and there I saw Him; He was nowhere else.”

But we have also this information from wikipedia:

"However, despite the aforementioned ecumenical attitude, and contrary to his contemporary portrayal in the West as a proponent of non-denominational spirituality, a number of Rumi poems suggest the importance of outward religious observance, the primacy of the Qur'an.[53]

Flee to God's Qur'an, take refuge in it
there with the spirits of the prophets merge.
The Book conveys the prophets' circumstances

those fish of the pure sea of Majesty.[54]

The same person cannot write these two poems. They are completely opposite.

What do you think?

3d

Me? I think Rumi was a very deep deep thinker, and probably a little bit over-influenced by the Quran, but I do think the same person can easily write conflicting poems in their searches and investigations of life. People are very varied, I think. Either way, that guy's poetry simply astounds me in very enjoyable ways. :-)

Originally Posted by 3dnow

The same person cannot write these two poems. They are completely opposite.

What do you think?

3d

Well, he lived in an area and period where Islam was the dominant religion - it's only natural that he expresses some of his experiences and concepts in a language familiar to popular Islam. Even if his ideas about God are more mystical.

And as Mayflow said, people can change their perspectives radically. Saul of Tarsus was a persecutor of Christians before he converted and basically created orthodox Christianity with his epistles to bishops.

Originally Posted by Animus27

Well, he lived in an area and period where Islam was the dominant religion - it's only natural that he expresses some of his experiences and concepts in a language familiar to popular Islam. Even if his ideas about God are more mystical.

And as Mayflow said, people can change their perspectives radically. Saul of Tarsus was a persecutor of Christians before he converted and basically created orthodox Christianity with his epistles to bishops.

Maybe muslims cheated ınventing poems he never wrote?

Originally Posted by 3dnow

Maybe muslims cheated ınventing poems he never wrote?

I doubt it. Many Christian mystics emphasize the presence of God in one's heart, and the yearning for union with it; while also placing importance on the Bible and sacraments. Mysticism and popular religion don't necessarily exclude one another.

Originally Posted by Animus27

I doubt it. Many Christian mystics emphasize the presence of God in one's heart, and the yearning for union with it; while also placing importance on the Bible and sacraments. Mysticism and popular religion don't necessarily exclude one another.

In the above poem he is not placing importance on Koran. He is completely refusing Mohammed's words. (the red part)

3d

[Gem]

Good poet. I'm a bit of a fan.

Originally Posted by Gem

Good poet. I'm a bit of a fan.

Which one the mystic or the muslim?

EDIT: Because in one of them you risk burning in hell for the eternity, in the other one there isn't such risk.

3d

I personally love the mystic and most of the love poems (which are mostly about mystical love) - some of the more religious stuff attributed to him is not always to my taste though.

An idea this line of questioning raises in me, is that Thomas Jefferson and many others thought their was a Real Jesus in some of his teachings and a false one in some other ones. I think Jefferson even created a sort of a version of the new testament that he thought was the Real Jesus speaking.

Yes, I just googled it and I was correct. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

Many also think that there was an Original Gospel they call "Q" that was simply a collection of Jesus' teachings and sayings and that the 4 Gospel writers later used copies of this and wove stories around it.

Originally Posted by 3dnow

In the above poem he is not placing importance on Koran. He is completely refusing Mohammed's words. (the red part)

3d

That's your interpretation, not necessarily what he meant. He might've been chastising the false piousness of most orthodox Muslims of his age. Or a myriad of other things. You cannot take one line from a poem and use it as proof that a person wasn't a practicing X. There's all kinds of mystical literature that show angst or uncertainty, and yet the person who wrote it would've quickly identified as belonging to a certain faith or religion.

People are multidimensional.