Do you think this could be true, Jesus recommending us to abstain from meat?

Originally Posted by Zero

Nu uuuh that isn't what I said. The fact that an animals perception of pain is different from ours is seperate from my justification of eating meat and is an added bonus.

Also, a mentally disabled HUMAN child is not the same as a fully functional deer. Of course I wouldn't kill a human, I only kill for food and what the law says I am allowed to kill.

Debby, you keep looking at everything from a human perspective,applying human values to everything and seem incapable of seperating yourself from that. If you could look down at the wider picture I think you would find it very freeing.

You chop up crickets and they continue to scurry away, you could say it is fleeing in fear but I find it unlikely that the little cricket can feel much fear without a head.

I suppose that my 'human' perspective is the result of being a human and my values come as a result of a certain evolution of spirit. As for animals experiencing fear and pain, you can say all you want that their appreciation is different than mine, but that doesn't invalidate their experience. It just proves that your perspective is skewed in order for you to achieve what you want at the expense of another being who does experience pain and fear.

Originally Posted by Time

Mabey back in the 70s, but not now. We know they move, they react to their enviroment, instantantiously in some instances, they grow, reproduce, they respond to ques by animals and other plants and evolve around them, they defend them selves from thread, some plants aid eachothers growth, theres some evidence they canreact to thought..... that isnt sentient. We just have this outdated mentality that humans good, everything else bad, destroy all....

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no bevcause they arent animals, they dont have mouths silly. But that is pretty much what happens. The plant knows that that animal is aiding it, or that that action is aiding in its evolution, and ends up evolving around it. Its called evolution

And plants dont need a brain, becasue each induvidual cell, acts as one in the whole. ITs not unlike the borg from star trek. Each has its purpose and messages eachother, just the same as our bodies. Its no different... Life is life, and even the bible says that ( if your into that sort of thing:P)

Do you just make this stuff up as you go? Prove everything you say, references, links, etc. and not just your opinion.

[Chrysaetos]

We're all looking at all of this from a human perspective. We tend to relate to those creatures who are similar to us.

We can enchant it with ''spiritual equality'' etc. but at the end of the day ''spiritual people'' too, will often have mammalian and avian pets, and not hug Mr. Spidey or prevent the local birds from eating Jimmy the Worm. There's nothing strange about relating to that which is similar to us, it is quite normal.

Im sorry, im not so paranoid about my learnings, and information being wrong, that i need to post my sources. If you find it to be wrong, do what I do:

LOOK IT UP YOURSELF

Any botany book, even gardening book will explain it. Not to mention my own personal experience. Ive dealt with plants for 25 years debs. Ive read up on them since i could read. I knew the evolutionary steps of plants before i could write in cursive, and even before I know how to long devide. Plants are my passion, my muse, and my stress relieve, and hobby.

Im not expecting you to understand botany. It isnt a very "intersting" subject to most people. But being ignorant about exactly what plants do, when actualy having a diet only consisting of them, is dangerous IMO. Its no different from saying your christian, whichout actualy reading the bible

Originally Posted by Time

Im sorry, im not so paranoid about my learnings, and information being wrong, that i need to post my sources. If you find it to be wrong, do what I do:

LOOK IT UP YOURSELF

Any botany book, even gardening book will explain it. Not to mention my own personal experience. Ive dealt with plants for 25 years debs. Ive read up on them since i could read. I knew the evolutionary steps of plants before i could write in cursive, and even before I know how to long devide. Plants are my passion, my muse, and my stress relieve, and hobby.

Im not expecting you to understand botany. It isnt a very "intersting" subject to most people. But being ignorant about exactly what plants do, when actualy having a diet only consisting of them, is dangerous IMO. Its no different from saying your christian, whichout actualy reading the bible

Sloppy way to evade proving your statements Time and it simply leaves your reader with the 'confirmation' that you are making it all up. If you will notice, that for the sake of not only my own integrity but for the sake of people who wish to educate themselves, I invariably include links. It could even be considered a mark of civility unlike your "LOOK IT UP YOURSELF".

When I was in elementary school, I had to walk home each day and my route always took me past a florists shop. Invariably, I stopped there, nose pressed to the glass and 'oggled' the tropical plants inside. As I child, I several times asked for specific plants for a Christmas present, unlike my peers who wanted Barbie dolls which were a rather new item at the time. I have developed 'gardens' that include visual delights as well as food production and am currently blessed enough to be starting a new one from the ground up. And by the way, it has a natural pond on it, that is home to at least fifteen varieties of native songbirds and what sounds like thousands of frogs. The area around the pond will be maintained in it's natural state and I do not use pesticides because I wouldn't want anything to get in the water that could hurt the food supply of the frogs or the little brood of ducklings that are using my pond as their nursery. Next year I will start a vegetable garden that will provide me with a summers worth of natural, organic food. So spare me your self-aggrandizing statements about being an 'expert' on all things to do with botany compared to me. But then I guess all that is beat by your assertion that you came out of the womb with a trowel in your hand. You are 25 years old aren't you......and you did say you've been involved with plants for 25 years? So your sometimes condescending attitude is understandable considering your young age. I was very much like that when I was young too. Now I'm just a cranky old woman who is looking to living a life that is replete with as much learning and growth as possible and that leaves as small a mark as possible on my environment.

And by the way, my name is not debs, not even my husband refers to me that way and if anyone has the right to, he does. You do not.

Sloppy way to evade proving your statements Time and it simply leaves your reader with the 'confirmation' that you are making it all up. If you will notice, that for the sake of not only my own integrity but for the sake of people who wish to educate themselves, I invariably include links.

Sorry im not making it up, and ive posted many sources of my information in our chats ( which dispite how you may think, i dont see as negative at all), and it seems like you have just disregarded them. I do not liek to reiterate myself, especialy when I make the same points over and over again. I also cant post links to books ive read years ago, or shows and videos ive seen 15 years ago, I can only state what I know and have found to be true ( which im sure you are doing as well)

When I was in elementary school, I had to walk home each day and my route always took me past a florists shop. Invariably, I stopped there, nose pressed to the glass and 'oggled' the tropical plants inside. As I child, I several times asked for specific plants for a Christmas present, unlike my peers who wanted Barbie dolls which were a rather new item at the time. I have developed 'gardens' that include visual delights as well as food production and am currently blessed enough to be starting a new one from the ground up. And by the way, it has a natural pond on it, that is home to at least fifteen varieties of native songbirds and what sounds like thousands of frogs. The area around the pond will be maintained in it's natural state and I do not use pesticides because I wouldn't want anything to get in the water that could hurt the food supply of the frogs or the little brood of ducklings that are using my pond as their nursery. Next year I will start a vegetable garden that will provide me with a summers worth of natural, organic food

See, how the hell can I argue with that LOL. If thats the case, disregard the threads weve been sharing, and from one gardener to another, i implore you to read gaias garden. It seems to fit you exact situation to a key, and I promise you, you will not come back from that book with the same outlook on gardening ( im not saying yours is wrong LOL, hell im jelous! I have a 100x 30 city lot LOL) Please, instead of pushing for vegans, push for gardening! I think we can bothj agree that growing your own food will solve half the problems in both of our beliefs.

Also, i think we may be able to learn from eachother, gardening wise. If you feel like sharing gardening knowledge, id greatly appreciate it, and show the same courtesy!

So spare me your self-aggrandizing statements about being an 'expert' on all things to do with botany compared to me. But then I guess all that is beat by your assertion that you came out of the womb with a trowel in your hand. You are 25 years old aren't you......and you did say you've been involved with plants for 25 years?

Im 26 ( on the 26th lol, champagne birthday!!! ), and ive always dealt with plants, even at a very young age ( my mom always says so). I was planting peas before I could walk. And i never said I was an expert, in fact i think youll agree with me when I say, in terms of gardening, theres so much to learn, and so much we dont know that no one should concider themselves an expert.) Only that I have more experience then you may think I do.

I was very much like that when I was young too. Now I'm just a cranky old woman who is looking to living a life that is replete with as much learning and growth as possible and that leaves as small a mark as possible on my environment.

You arent cranky LOL. Id never make assumptions about people based on their age ( if you want me to say, i actualy thought you were in your 30s or 40) at least you are having a civilized conversation about it without getting nasty. But the last part, I cant argue with, and Im trying to do the same thing, actualy you explained it better then I wouldve. Just because i may dissagree with how you think about it, doesnt mean i dont agree with your real outlook as a whole, which i see it as just as you said.

BTW, i never meant to insult you with debs ( I usualy shorten everyones name, just a habit) Im assuming you prefer debby?

Hello Time, thanks for your response to my last post. I'm afraid that as a result of our recent move to this new little house, I've developed some strains that have turned into a real 'pain in the neck' and as a result I think I was just a little short with you and for that I'm sorry. Please accept my apologies.

As for the gardening, yes I am blessed in my current location. It is the place that in my imagination I have always wanted to live in and now, at the end of my life I have arrived. I'm only sorry that I didn't get here 20 years ago. But at least I get to start the garden for the next folks who are lucky enough to live here.

The kind of gardening that you and your buddies here have been going on about is actually nothing new to me. It's how I've gardened always, my mother who is 75 and still plants a garden every year (and buys little if any veggies through much of the year), has gardened this way forever and the same with all my aunts and cousins. I guess it is more a case of it becoming newsworthy as a result of the current food issues that are facing the world. Ask anyone who was born during the Depression what the gardens were like when they were children and you'll be amazed to hear about what is considered 'new and amazing' today.

Anyway, again, my apolgies for the crankiness and happy gardening.

Grats on the move (not the pain :S ) Im really hoping i do a similar thing, very very soon.

Some of the techniques and information are actualy from depression era people. Use of caregana to make free nitrogen fertilizer and multch is one fo them, same with cover crops. But theres more associations that these people have spent their whole lives finding and doing. Like certain plant guilds (groups of plants that benefit eachother), and creating a whole forest ecosystem, based around your need for food,

But we can learn alot from it in general. Its abotu everything being in balance, and equil. Not either or, which I think is mine and some others point here. We see veganism as either or, not a middle ground. And it is your way of life, you have no need to appologize for standing up for your beliefs ( but i do appreciate it, and im sorry to if i came of a it strong), I wouldnt expect anything else from a fellow canadian :P

I dont think its even news worthy much yet. I learned of it by word of mouth, so I guess you can say luck lol. I think you would enjoy the book regardless, especialy if your starting from scratch. Your never to old or young to learn

Hi I am new here, this is my first post. So hi to everybody

This is a very interesting thread and here is view, please bear with me I am not English native, I am from East Europe, Romania, so my English got mistakes.


So I am vegetarian, for about 10 years... Before I was meat eater, and loved the meat a lot. I grew up in the little village, and country people got all sort of animals around the house, not organized farms for profit, so very different from US and West Europe.

We had chickens, pigs, 2 cows, just enough to produce some eggs, milk and yeah meat. I loved meat, but didn't love to see those animals screaming pain while being killed, I was crying as a child whenever grandparents decided they need to kill one.

However in a little family farm like that, animals were killed rarely, pigs in the winter, only one would get sacrificed, and chickens 1-2 per month. There were also some chicken so old, older than myself. All those animals were very in the nature all day outside, having space to run and doing pretty good life.

So yeah, basically that was it before revolution and capitalism to install here. And big capitalist farms...




So my point is kinda in the middle - eating meat when you are hungry and nothing else is to eat, when life is simple and those animals are running happy and that yard, and get killed randomly and rarely, that I can understand. It resembles nature and circle of life, because is not that organized.
I am not agreeing, as I am vegetarian, but I understand... At least those animals got happy life up to their killing. Some even die of old age instead of being killed.

However the horror stories I hear about those capitalist huge farms... not only about how those animals are dying, but also how those animals are LIVING. That scares the hell out of me - chicken fed intravenously, with the pattern of night/day broken just because is more profitable to have 2 eggs instead of 1 per day etc etc Not too mention the chemicals those animals are eating, injected with...

That is so brutal and so alike with Hitler methods. I do not have to express my feelings upon this... It's the hell on earth. We are producing hell.


About the PLANTS - I think they feel the pain. All that is living is feeling pain. However I think the feeling is weaker than in animals and humans.
Also the plants got a root, cut the part that is above usually from the root comes another plant, even the trees, young branches are surrounding the old trunk. So their capacity of regenerating is way superior to animals and humans.

Also what humans are doing to plants - altering them genetically and putting all the chemicals on them is not good. I think plants are suffering immensely of the poisoning and humans eating them alike.
Eating poisoned plants, genetically altered plants, is worse than eating simple cooked natural meat. I came to realize that, even if I am vegetarian.

The answer is in simple food, clean natural. IF one can be vegetarian or vegan even better. But hell farms for animals and poisoned plants this is not the answer I am sure. Also rationalize that animals and plants do not feel pain, also is not the answer, because all that is living on Earth is feeling pain. And evolving means growing the love, transcending material into spiritual life. New rules for old world.


Google about Hunza Valley and Hunza people. Simple people that are living very long life. Still eating meat but rarely, mostly in winter. Eating very natural organic food, living simple in a non polluted environment.

I would also like to add that living simple, eating organic, basic, with rare meat, or no meat at all, vegetarian, vegan, helps in prolonging life, and in spiritual paths.