enlightenment and the ultimacy of everything

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by shivatar

What do you think is so great about the ego? you barely know what it is. you only know that it feels like who you are. whats so special about that feeling?

Why care about being separate from other people? or similar to the high minded sages?

why do you care about anything so trivial? or do you care at all, maybe just the ego cares. and fears it is being shed, so it puts up a fight saying this and that is of utmost importance.

it is challenging you. will you challenge it or be over-run?

As far as I am aware, it is the ego which gives the sense of existence within this mortal, material framework as being the actual self-conscious entity. It is what enables me, as 'me' to type these things on this forum....to have 'thoughts' and 'ideas' relating to the concept of body/mind within this causal universe.

Of course, I could just go on living as if I (ego) is just watching the movie and of course I could go on watching countless Mooji satsangas on Youtube and pacify myself with his explanation "so, who is observing this?" but any exercise between observer and observed just leads me into the 'higher functions of mind' which appear to be endless with regards to who/what is actually 'observing' anything.

Maybe it is my 'ego putting up a fight' and yet, 'letting go' or 'surrender' just doesn't yield the same results or outcomes as hitherto experienced. It all boils down to "okay, I've let go, so now what?" when there isn't anything which follows that realisation. There's just "IS-ness" and while many seem to be satisfied with that, I realise there are more layers of the onion to peel away, but I seem to have somehow lost the whole onion in the process...the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater...without me realising there was any baby in the bathtub to begin with...do you see it, Shivatar?

I'm not comparing myself to anybody...other people...wise saints and sages, but at the same time, I do wonder what is the difference between ignorance as in 'not knowing any better' and ignorance in regards to 'knowing better, but making the conscious decision to remain ignorant because it is just 'easier' somehow' because it takes no effort...nothing ventured, nothing gained or lost in the whole process.

This is the whole crux of my dilemma.

[shivatar]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

As far as I am aware, it is the ego which gives the sense of existence within this mortal, material framework as being the actual self-conscious entity. It is what enables me, as 'me' to type these things on this forum....to have 'thoughts' and 'ideas' relating to the concept of body/mind within this causal universe.

Of course, I could just go on living as if I (ego) is just watching the movie and of course I could go on watching countless Mooji satsangas on Youtube and pacify myself with his explanation "so, who is observing this?" but any exercise between observer and observed just leads me into the 'higher functions of mind' which appear to be endless with regards to who/what is actually 'observing' anything.

Maybe it is my 'ego putting up a fight' and yet, 'letting go' or 'surrender' just doesn't yield the same results or outcomes as hitherto experienced. It all boils down to "okay, I've let go, so now what?" when there isn't anything which follows that realisation. There's just "IS-ness" and while many seem to be satisfied with that, I realise there are more layers of the onion to peel away, but I seem to have somehow lost the whole onion in the process...the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater...without me realising there was any baby in the bathtub to begin with...do you see it, Shivatar?

I'm not comparing myself to anybody...other people...wise saints and sages, but at the same time, I do wonder what is the difference between ignorance as in 'not knowing any better' and ignorance in regards to 'knowing better, but making the conscious decision to remain ignorant because it is just 'easier' somehow' because it takes no effort...nothing ventured, nothing gained or lost in the whole process.

This is the whole crux of my dilemma.

I don't see it because letting go isn't the end-all goal as you make it out to be. Letting go is the beginning step. Once I let go and experience freedom then I consciously move forward. Letting go is like a submission to inner choice. Once you begin to make inner choices you can grab on again and move your life in the way you want. you can choose the reality you create, but not if you are constantly letting go endlessly. letting go unlocks the power to create reality, holding on and moving forward is what brings the dream reality into physical reality.

I let go to activate my higher self, then I do egoic things from my higher self. We always need an ego of sorts, but it can

[shivatar]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

As far as I am aware, it is the ego which gives the sense of existence within this mortal, material framework as being the actual self-conscious entity. It is what enables me, as 'me' to type these things on this forum....to have 'thoughts' and 'ideas' relating to the concept of body/mind within this causal universe.

Of course, I could just go on living as if I (ego) is just watching the movie and of course I could go on watching countless Mooji satsangas on Youtube and pacify myself with his explanation "so, who is observing this?" but any exercise between observer and observed just leads me into the 'higher functions of mind' which appear to be endless with regards to who/what is actually 'observing' anything.

Maybe it is my 'ego putting up a fight' and yet, 'letting go' or 'surrender' just doesn't yield the same results or outcomes as hitherto experienced. It all boils down to "okay, I've let go, so now what?" when there isn't anything which follows that realisation. There's just "IS-ness" and while many seem to be satisfied with that, I realise there are more layers of the onion to peel away, but I seem to have somehow lost the whole onion in the process...the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater...without me realising there was any baby in the bathtub to begin with...do you see it, Shivatar?

I'm not comparing myself to anybody...other people...wise saints and sages, but at the same time, I do wonder what is the difference between ignorance as in 'not knowing any better' and ignorance in regards to 'knowing better, but making the conscious decision to remain ignorant because it is just 'easier' somehow' because it takes no effort...nothing ventured, nothing gained or lost in the whole process.

This is the whole crux of my dilemma.

I don't see it because letting go isn't the end-all goal as you make it out to be. Letting go is the beginning step. Once I let go and experience freedom then I consciously move forward. Letting go is like a submission to inner choice. Once you begin to make inner choices you can grab on again and move your life in the way you want. you can choose the reality you create, but not if you are constantly letting go endlessly. letting go unlocks the power to create reality, holding on and moving forward is what brings the dream reality into physical reality.

I let go to activate my higher self, then I do egoic things from my higher self. We always need an ego of sorts. Our ego grows as we do, it's not limited to what it began as just like we are not limited to what we were as children.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by shivatar

I don't see it because letting go isn't the end-all goal as you make it out to be. Letting go is the beginning step. Once I let go and experience freedom then I consciously move forward. Letting go is like a submission to inner choice. Once you begin to make inner choices you can grab on again and move your life in the way you want. you can choose the reality you create, but not if you are constantly letting go endlessly. letting go unlocks the power to create reality, holding on and moving forward is what brings the dream reality into physical reality.

I let go to activate my higher self, then I do egoic things from my higher self. We always need an ego of sorts, but it can

This can keep going around in circles indefinitely.

Remember the time, not so long ago when even you, yourself considered enlightenment to be rather blasé and wanted to experience something nobody else had? Remember a few months ago when you stated that letting go wasn't producing any worthwhile results and Knight of Lenity (I wonder what happened to him) suggested Seva...selfless service because all other aspects of spirituality had become hitherto exhausted by your kind self?

Yes, the whole thing, in a nutshell is not only to let go, but let things happen effortlessly, but for me, nothing is happening effortlessly. It is one continual process of waking, bathing, eating, cleaning, studying, going out, eating, bathing, praying, typing on internet, eating, studying, sleeping...and the next day it is 'rinse and repeat'...ad nauseum.

I also guess that all my desires have gone except for one. That is, not to continue in a mere routine existence without attachment, yet I don't really 'want' anything to make my life go the 'way I want'...many times, my counsellor and shrink have said "what are you interested in?" and "what makes you happy?" and "what are your aims and goals?" and I think I have given them so many rainchecks on that, it ain't funny.

I have fallen into the apathy of total solipsism and I realise my mind, my thoughts create the worlds, but I'm at the point where I have no thoughts, really...but as running once said to me, it takes many times of experiencing the bliss before it decides to 'stick' and become a permanent fixture...and in between times, there's just that 'remember when?'

What wasn't said is that each and every time it becomes harder and harder to experience the bliss because the bodymind gets so used to it.

[wstein]

Originally Posted by shivatar

well, before I get too excited, what is a disembodied voice? like the voice in my head that sounds like me, but is carrying on a two sided conversation with itself sometimes?

"disembodied voice": if you are hearing 'someone' speaking but its not coming from a physical person's mouth.

It can sound like multiple aspects of you having an internal discussion (like you said), or it might sound more like someone you know like your mother or a teacher, only rarely does it not sound like someone you know.

p.s. thanks for being a real life example of what I was trying to say.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

This can keep going around in circles indefinitely.

Remember the time, not so long ago when even you, yourself considered enlightenment to be rather blasé and wanted to experience something nobody else had? Remember a few months ago when you stated that letting go wasn't producing any worthwhile results and Knight of Lenity (I wonder what happened to him) suggested Seva...selfless service because all other aspects of spirituality had become hitherto exhausted by your kind self?

Yes, the whole thing, in a nutshell is not only to let go, but let things happen effortlessly, but for me, nothing is happening effortlessly. It is one continual process of waking, bathing, eating, cleaning, studying, going out, eating, bathing, praying, typing on internet, eating, studying, sleeping...and the next day it is 'rinse and repeat'...ad nauseum.

I also guess that all my desires have gone except for one. That is, not to continue in a mere routine existence without attachment, yet I don't really 'want' anything to make my life go the 'way I want'...many times, my counsellor and shrink have said "what are you interested in?" and "what makes you happy?" and "what are your aims and goals?" and I think I have given them so many rainchecks on that, it ain't funny.

I have fallen into the apathy of total solipsism and I realise my mind, my thoughts create the worlds, but I'm at the point where I have no thoughts, really...but as running once said to me, it takes many times of experiencing the bliss before it decides to 'stick' and become a permanent fixture...and in between times, there's just that 'remember when?'

What wasn't said is that each and every time it becomes harder and harder to experience the bliss because the bodymind gets so used to it.

Without venturing out of your own 'spiritual comfort zone' you're not really providing the universe with any opportunity to create situations which may benefit your spiritual growth! A Guru isn't going to come knocking on your door tomorrow with "the universe sent me here to teach you" and often, it isn't about 'finding a different approach to the infinite' but fully exploring the one you already have, but in totally different ways.
What ever happened to you going to the Shiva temple once a month? Oh I know, you chickened out last minute due to the time it would take to establish a presence there...that, my dear, is your ego at work!

[shivatar]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

This can keep going around in circles indefinitely.

Remember the time, not so long ago when even you, yourself considered enlightenment to be rather blasé and wanted to experience something nobody else had? Remember a few months ago when you stated that letting go wasn't producing any worthwhile results and Knight of Lenity (I wonder what happened to him) suggested Seva...selfless service because all other aspects of spirituality had become hitherto exhausted by your kind self?

Yes, the whole thing, in a nutshell is not only to let go, but let things happen effortlessly, but for me, nothing is happening effortlessly. It is one continual process of waking, bathing, eating, cleaning, studying, going out, eating, bathing, praying, typing on internet, eating, studying, sleeping...and the next day it is 'rinse and repeat'...ad nauseum.

I also guess that all my desires have gone except for one. That is, not to continue in a mere routine existence without attachment, yet I don't really 'want' anything to make my life go the 'way I want'...many times, my counsellor and shrink have said "what are you interested in?" and "what makes you happy?" and "what are your aims and goals?" and I think I have given them so many rainchecks on that, it ain't funny.

I have fallen into the apathy of total solipsism and I realize my mind, my thoughts create the worlds, but I'm at the point where I have no thoughts, really...but as running once said to me, it takes many times of experiencing the bliss before it decides to 'stick' and become a permanent scenario...and in between times, there's just that 'remember when?'

Things can change in a single moment. Months ago is an eternity to me.

Guess running was right yet again lol. He's a pretty smart guy.

Sounds to me like you have a pretty good routine down. Now all you need to do is forget the "ad nauseum" part. what's so bad about your routine?

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by shivatar

Things can change in a single moment. Months ago is an eternity to me.

Guess running was right yet again lol. He's a pretty smart guy.

Sounds to me like you have a pretty good routine down. Now all you need to do is forget the "ad nauseum" part. what's so bad about your routine?

A trained monkey could do it. lol

Maybe I am where you were 6 months ago...consider it.

[shivatar]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

A trained monkey could do it. lol

Maybe I am where you were 6 months ago...consider it.

my ego would love to hear that compliment but my higher self knows the truth and it's not what my ego wants to hear.

Everybody has their strengths and weaknesses. We are equals believe it or not

a trained monkey still has the gift of God in them. A trained monkey still enjoys the same universe we do, maybe even in a more happier way than us. Who knows, I sure dont.

I've always considered you to be either as advanced as me, or more advanced.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by shivatar

my ego would love to hear that compliment but my higher self knows the truth and it's not what my ego wants to hear.

Everybody has their strengths and weaknesses. We are equals believe it or not

a trained monkey still has the gift of God in them. A trained monkey still enjoys the same universe we do, maybe even in a more happier way than us. Who knows, I sure dont.

I've always considered you to be either as advanced as me, or more advanced.

My ego also likes hearing the compliment, but my Higher Self cares not.

This is probably just a phase shift, where I feel like doing something different, but I don't know what...all the while knowing that I am not really doing anything.

It's like I am an actor on stage waiting for my script, but the production crew is lagging behind...maybe it's a cue to just go meditate and everything else just becomes an excuse not to meditate...until every excuse has been removed.

I go through these phases from time to time. Sometimes the 'faith' is there in full, blazing force...other times it is notably absent and so, I'll 'fake it til I make it' then I see myself as the world's biggest spiritual hypocrite until such times as I am spiritually infused and enthused once more.

I guess I can blame 'hormones' or 'body changes' or 'lack of brain chemicals' but in the end, I also realise that I am not the mind or body either, so all of this should make no difference...and there is still that nagging part of me which does not want to reduce a cosmic, metaphysical being to a pile of conscious energy which is who I am at the core.

Yes, it is another 'Dark Night' and I realise that there will be many dawns and nights which precede them, until I spiritually migrate to a pole and that I should be doing a lot of things, but I am not because the ego makes up really great excuses which satisfy the mind and keep it numbed and dumbed down into a form of meaningless existence.

Then, it becomes the case of "I want to feel bhakti!" so I put on a devotional song or mantra...start singing/chanting along...nope, no effect, so I turn it off....I look at all my pictures of Bhairava and Shiva in my scrap book...nope, nothing. I read poems by Rumi, Gibran, Basavana, Sambandhar...nope, the butter is still hard as a rock so I give that up...I go and study the Sri Yantra...sacred geometry...immerse myself in quantum mechanics or mathematics (which usually and weirdly turns me on)...nope, nothing...I come to the ultimate realisation that I probably just need to get laid bigtime...nope, nothing happening there either...So I go to the beach...ocean is there, sand is there...gulls are there...big deal...I go and sit with friends until their conversation bores the hell out of me...nothing.

It's just depression rearing its ugly head again, nothing more, nothing less...yet I wont take any meds for it.