Find the cause of suffering

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Rain95

Well said. It's interesting to me that we are said to be connected to a source and so have "perfect" aspects to ourselves or source like qualities yet we are incomplete in some ways also thus, can learn.

Yes, though it is a different sort of learning than acquiring memorised information. It is a realisation which transforms the mind; not a realisation that causes a change, but rather a change in the moment of realisation. A shift, if you will. From that comes new wisdom which is 'carried forward' in the changing shape of our personalities, without actually becoming set as a known thing. More like a thing one can see more easily which used to be unconscious.

I wish there were expert "consciousness" scientists that could tell me what qualities and parts a consciousness has but to this day no scientist can even say what exactly a consciousness is or where it is or even if it survives the death of the body or not. It's pretty amazing with all modern science knows they can still not say exactly what consciousness is.

My guess about one aspect of consciousness is there are some "twin" like qualities that exist as energy in consciousness and exist physically in the human brain. Like memory. The brain stores memories physically so it exists there, but then after we die, it is said we can remember past lives, people we know and many other things so it seems consciousness also must have a memory. Not a physical one like the brain has that ends when the body does, but an energy based one. I'd say logically if consciousness can gain wisdom and learn and know things, it has to have a memory of some type. But it is different from the memory the brain has and uses.

In the Buddhist teachings the 'rebirth' is discussed as kamma... and that is perhaps one the most misunderstood fundamentals of Buddhism, but to say an 'energy' carries forward is a fair way of understanding the Buddhist conception. The Buddhist teachings basically think of this force as the volition.

To go into that here would only really be a distraction for the mind to become preoccupied in thoughts about volition, rather than us actually being consciously aware that it is our volition that created such thinking. I say 'created' and not 'caused' because the thought is already there in the moment the volition arises.

I use this word 'truth' very loosely, but when we want to investigate what is true, rather than do something, we have to stop what we do and look. Anyone can experiment by just finding out right now 'what it is like' right now - not what we want it to be like, not what it should be like, but just to be presently knowing it is like 'this'. If we notice, we have to stop to look - and by 'stop' we really mean ceasing the volition and 'just noticing...'

That is the essence of the meditation. If you notice that way of seeing it as it happens to be, then you know how to meditate. This means meditation is the cessation of volition - to 'just be'. Therefore, when people say instructions like breath a certain way, count your breaths, imagine some wonderful thing - all this requires the volition you use to 'make something happen'. But as we just experimented, to look into 'what's true' the volition necessarily ceases.

If now the reader is trying to understand what I said, the moment has gone, and the realisation did not occur. If a 'light came on' then great, because that has nothing to do with me, it was directly seen through one's own realisation.
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Such an idea adds a lot of complexity to it all but then it all is probably a lot more advanced and complex than a human can understand.

Yes, it can't be tied down as knowledge. It's something that suddenly is realised in a single 'aha moment', which can't be held onto, but is 'still there' in the sense that it now easy to see.

I think it's possible the human body and brain is somehow based on elements of consciousness and that's why we can merge with the body so easily. I would not be surprised if some things the body does, like think, know, learn, reason...exists in some form in consciousness as well. So we exist with physical mechanical forms of these at the same time energy forms of these things exist as us.

Indeed. Mind/body is all moving energy (though that is a completely ambiguous thing to say - as 'truth statements' tend to be).

Maybe enlightenment is a form of discarding the physical based forms of these things so we are only perceiving from the energy forms of them.

Scientists can see physically in the brain where memories are stored and we know this "memory" is wiped when the body stops working.... so if we still know "who we are" after we leave the body it means consciousness also has it's own memory.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Shaunc

Buddhism can be followed quite simply. Please note that I said simply and not easily, digging ditches is simple but anyone that's tried it knows it isn't easy.
Looking for deeper meanings and loopholes in the dharma isn't clever and intelligent behavior. Would anyone driving down the road wonder what people really meant when they came to a give way sign, or ponder the reason why it was placed there, or would the clever and intelligent thing be just to give way.
Spend a bit of time watching nature. The birds and the animals. They eat, sleep, exercise a little, mate and die.
I'm sure that most people could spend their time better than analysing the dharma. Just be grateful we found it and accept it for what it is.
Good luck and best wishes.

'Buddhism can be followed quite simply. Please note that I said simply and not easily'


I think Dharma can be followed quite simply but Buddhism has made it not so easy.

[blackraven]

Originally Posted by Gem

The basis of Gotama's teachings is to acknowledge ones own suffering, find the cause, and thus end suffering.

Most of us suffer and find cause in external things that hurt us. This means suffering is linked to sensation. The question is, does sensation cause suffering, or is it the way we relate to sensation that is cause?

In the meditation, mindfulness, we are aware of ourselves, body, mind, emotion, just as they are as they happen to arise. The obstacle to this is 'distraction'. We can drift off into autopilot and become unconscious of what is actually happening, and instead, live in an imaginary world created in reaction to the actual real lived experience.

In sitting practice we soon see we are aware of our sensation and thought, and then we drift away into imaginary pasts, futures and fantasies. It's not bad or incorrect to do this. The meditation practice just enables a conscious recognition of it. Now you know, 'so this is what I do'.

From that preliminary, the the same process of being aware, noticing and discovering continues, revealing the truth about ourselves. Through this process of 'sati' we soon come to learn about how we relate to sensation - including physical, emotional and psychological - and come to realise how we cause our own suffering by relating to sensation in a somewhat delusional way.

Once this cause is identified, each new arising of suffering is recognised as 'something I do', rather than 'something that happens to me'... and we are thereby led to understand the way to bring suffering to an end.

Gem - I don’t know a whole lot about Buddhism and don’t know if my input is relevant. I tend not to see suffering as ‘unmet desires’ and all those Buddhist terms. I do, however, see suffering as when one experiences and acknowledges physical pain or mental anguish and chooses to climb into that sensation and remain there. To end suffering it takes a conscious choice to look at that source of pain, feel it, then let it go. How does one let it go? By inner dialogue wherein one tells him/herself, “No, I’m not going to let this past pain bother me anymore in the present moment.”

I could give you countless personal examples, but it wouldn’t really make my point any stronger. At any rate, choice is the only way out of suffering as I see it. Past transgressions can forge serious bondage for in individual, but it doesn’t have to be that way. I have found one way of choosing to let things go is by putting myself in other’s shoes to understand why they were the way they were when they acted or reacted the way they did. Even if someone has done something unexplainable or just down right evil, I can still choose to feel and let go.

People remain in a state of suffering for an entire lifetime and it’s that state of suffering that consumes and defines one’s life then. Even the best psychiatrist, psychologist or counselors can’t break through the severity of some types of suffering.

I think Gotama is right into looking at the cause in order to end suffering. For a lot of people, that’s not enough. Pain can become a safety net. (Please no backlash as I’ve experienced my own fair amount of pain in life.) I see myself in other family members who still hold tight to the horrible things our mother did. I was where they are many years ago, but somewhere along the line I made a choice to just let it all go so that I could get on with my life. But I’ve been very fortunate to have had a good support system in place.

Unmet desires may be at the heart of the Buddhist teaching, but from a layman’s point of view, choice to end suffering makes sense to me.

[sky]

Desire is so inherent to the human condition that life without it is almost inconceivable. It is probably more accurate to call us “human desirelings” than “human beings.” Anyone wishing to live a wise life needs to explore deeply the nature of his or her own desire.

A number of myths about desire circulate among Buddhists. A common one is that desire is bad, and a spiritually mature person has no desires. Another is that the Buddha taught that desire is the cause of suffering and therefore all desire, even the desire to practice for liberation, is a problem. But life without desire is not necessarily a good thing: for example, one symptom of depression is having no desires. The Buddha did not teach that desire was the cause of suffering. In fact, he encouraged his followers to arouse ardent desire for liberation.

A starting point for understanding desire is to differentiate between unhealthy and healthy desire. Unhealthy desire undermines psychological health, producing what Buddhism often calls “suffering” for short. Healthy desire can contribute to psychological well-being, happiness, and peace. If we place healthy and unhealthy desire on a spectrum, at one end we have the motivations that lead to some of the worst and most horrific things people do. But at the other end, desire expresses some of the most beautiful and noble aspects of human life.

One way to distinguish the two ends of this spectrum is to differentiate between craving and aspiration. When the Buddha pointed to the cause of suffering, he used the word tanhà or thirst. It represents desire which is in some way compulsive, driven, and therefore not easy to let go of. This kind of desire is often accompanied by clinging, contraction, tension, or pressure.

Craving has its costs. People have destroyed their lives by acting on their addictions. When craving has the upper hand, it is all too easy to make poor choices. Freedom, that is, free will and the ability to choose wisely, is easily compromised. Craving takes a toll on our bodies when it expresses itself as physical tension. And it can take an even bigger toll on our minds: constant wanting can exhaust the mind. Left unchecked, craving can lead to an alienation from our self. Unfulfilled, craving can all too easily turn into frustration and anger.

One of the surprising discoveries that we make in mindfulness meditation is how pervasively and constantly the mind is under the sway of craving. This thirst is the primary reason the mind chases after its own thoughts.

An important function of meditation is to calm down the incessant churning of desire so that we can discover at the other end of the spectrum our deeper wellsprings of motivation. When surface concerns and chatter quiet down, among the beautiful things we can find are our aspirations. The etymology of “aspiration” (like “spiritual”) is rooted in the Latin word for “breath” (spirare). This points to the close relationship between breath and aspiration. Craving tends to contract the breathing; aspiration surfaces most easily when our breathing is relaxed and open. In the same way that natural breathing can’t be an act of will, so too the motivations and sense of purpose that come with aspiration can’t be willfully generated. Staying aware of our breathing can keep us close to what inspires us.

The sensitivity and awareness that come from mindfulness practice support the discovery of our healthy desires and aspirations. Mindfulness not only helps us get in touch with our aspirations, but it helps prevent aspiration from becoming craving. Even though what we might want is healthy and appropriate, if we are not careful, this desire can manifest as craving. Noticing the physical and mental tension, pressure, and uneasiness that come with craving makes it easier to distinguish aspiration from craving.

One way aspiration becomes craving is through expectation. At its best, aspiration has an openness to possibility without a need for anything to happen. This doesn’t mean that we don’t act on our aspirations, but that we don’t cling to their success. There is something satisfying and wonderful in a healthy aspiration that is not dependent on outcome.

If we want to base our lives on aspiration rather than craving, we have to give ourselves time to discover our deepest wishes. Aspiration often arises from a non-discursive part of the heart and mind. Craving and clinging are often tied to the discursive world of planning, thinking, and fantasy, while aspiration is associated with inner stillness and relaxation. Sometimes it is only during long contemplative periods that people discover what they most want to base their life on.

It is also important to respect both ourselves and our aspirations. It is easy to dismiss both our aspirations and the search for them. Believing that we are not good enough, capable, or deserving can leave us feeling unfulfilled and regretful. In the world of aspiration, it is far better to try and fail than to never try.

Buddhism recognizes many beautiful aspirations, including wishes of goodwill and kindness for others, and the desire for happiness and other wholesome qualities of mind for ourselves. Central to Buddhist practice are the aspirations for liberation and for the alleviation of the sufferings of others. However, Buddhism does not require us to desire either of these; when the heart is open and relaxed, these wishes often bubble up. Both aspirations can flow through us without egotism or craving. They can seem so natural that they appear impersonal. Just as water flows downhill, so the unimpeded heart flows to freedom and service. The healthy desire for freedom and compassion can flow like a mighty river that finds its rest in reaching the vast ocean.



For anyone who is interested in the way Buddhist understand the teaching on desire.

[sky]

Quote blackraven ' I don’t know a whole lot about Buddhism and don’t know if my input is relevant '

You might think you don't know a whole lot but you certainly follow Buddha's teachings on Dukkha

[Gem]

Originally Posted by blackraven

Gem - I don’t know a whole lot about Buddhism and don’t know if my input is relevant. That's OK, other terms I tend not to see suffering as ‘unmet desires’ and all those Buddhist terms.

That's Ok, other terms are at least as good.

I do, however, see suffering as when one experiences and acknowledges physical pain or mental anguish and chooses to climb into that sensation and remain there. To end suffering it takes a conscious choice to look at that source of pain, feel it, then let it go. How does one let it go? By inner dialogue wherein one tells him/herself, “No, I’m not going to let this past pain bother me anymore in the present moment.”

That's basically the essence of it, not being bothered by the sensation...

I could give you countless personal examples, but it wouldn’t really make my point any stronger. At any rate, choice is the only way out of suffering as I see it. Past transgressions can forge serious bondage for in individual, but it doesn’t have to be that way. I have found one way of choosing to let things go is by putting myself in other’s shoes to understand why they were the way they were when they acted or reacted the way they did. Even if someone has done something unexplainable or just down right evil, I can still choose to feel and let go.

People remain in a state of suffering for an entire lifetime and it’s that state of suffering that consumes and defines one’s life then. Even the best psychiatrist, psychologist or counselors can’t break through the severity of some types of suffering.

I think Gotama is right into looking at the cause in order to end suffering. For a lot of people, that’s not enough. Pain can become a safety net. (Please no backlash as I’ve experienced my own fair amount of pain in life.) I see myself in other family members who still hold tight to the horrible things our mother did. I was where they are many years ago, but somewhere along the line I made a choice to just let it all go so that I could get on with my life. But I’ve been very fortunate to have had a good support system in place.

Unmet desires may be at the heart of the Buddhist teaching, but from a layman’s point of view, choice to end suffering makes sense to me.

'Desire' as it is talked about in Buddhism, or 'craving', really relates directly to sensation, and not so much the stuff we want - but still, the stuff we want is only means of producing the sensations we want.

In our minds we create a disconnect. For example, a drinker imagines that they want a drink, but actually, to a drinker, drinking is only a means of relieving withdrawl sensations, and producing pleasant sensations, or similarly, 'drowning' painful emotion and producing happy emotion. In this way the drinker disconnects by 'wanting a drink' without paying attention to the adverse reactions they have to the array of withdrawl symptoms and the craving reactions for the sensation/emotion they get from drinking.

Then using that disconnect we can pretend that desire is not dukkha, as we want some sort of thing without a clear awareness that we only want it because it is a means to producing pleasing sensations. This means... we think we desire the means, but we really only desire the ends: sensations.

In this way, people generally live in a constant reactivity being adverse to one sensation and craving another, which when extreme as hatred and greed.

In the meditation we will be conscious of the sensation as it comes and goes, and the reactivity to that feeling will become very clear to us. This way we become direct observers of our own balance of mind with respect to physical sensation including the emotions (which we can feel in the body like lump in the throat, tension of anger, 'figetyness' of impatience and frustration etc).

Of course we have to defend desire because craving is fuel for the ego, whereas the 'other self' which is the same space for us all, wants nothing and needs nothing. All this stuff, desire and so forth, arises in that 'space', as I called it, so it isn't really ourselves that desire. I am the one aware desire has arisen, not the one who desires.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by sky123

For anyone who is interested in the way Buddhist understand the teaching on desire.

Anyone who was interested would google 'desire suffering buddhism' themselves. You didn't even provide a link to site that published it (which was insightmeditationcentre.org).

Basically, this thread is for participants to say what they have to say. If you could articulate an elaborate explanation yourself, that would be great.

[Rain95]

No person, no ideas, no desires, no self caused suffering.

I think the answer to find the cause is me. I am the cause. So live without an I.

It's funny because if I read that statement I try to imagine how life would be without an I. Imagine it, think about it, have a concept of it... all of which keeps the I going...the I based on thoughts.

What is life like if we drop all thoughts? If you have any kind of answer, you have not dropped all thoughts.

What is it? It's what is has always been, before you came to be and exactly the same after you left. Nothing changes at all. Because the you was never you. You were just distracted by a shiny object which is thought..... if you look away it's like turning off the radio or the tv... inner and outer peace is born.

What do I think about desire? Is it good or bad? Really if I just am I have no idea what desire is. I am not experiencing it. I am listening to the silence around me, sensing the warmth of the room, the inner and outer contentment and peace. I don't know what desire is because it is not here, a part of my now. I just am as I exist before any thought is present. In this mystery, in wonder. In this peace compassion and love is born. I think it moves with acceptance, non-judgement, with passive surrender, without reaction, just a calm accepting of whatever is without any desires for it to be anything other than what it is. With no interest is a self that makes it into something.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Gem

Anyone who was interested would google 'desire suffering buddhism' themselves. You didn't even provide a link to site that published it (which was insightmeditationcentre.org).

Basically, this thread is for participants to say what they have to say. If you could articulate an elaborate explanation yourself, that would be great.

Pardon me for sharing a Buddhist teaching on ' Desire ', message understood

[sky]

Originally Posted by Rain95

No person, no ideas, no desires, no self caused suffering.

I think the answer to find the cause is me. I am the cause. So live without an I.

It's funny because if I read that statement I try to imagine how life would be without an I. Imagine it, think about it, have a concept of it... all of which keeps the I going...the I based on thoughts.

What is life like if we drop all thoughts? If you have any kind of answer, you have not dropped all thoughts.

What is it? It's what is has always been, before you came to be and exactly the same after you left. Nothing changes at all. Because the you was never you. You were just distracted by a shiny object which is thought..... if you look away it's like turning off the radio or the tv... inner and outer peace is born.

What do I think about desire? Is it good or bad? Really if I just am I have no idea what desire is. I am not experiencing it. I am listening to the silence around me, sensing the warmth of the room, the inner and outer contentment and peace. I don't know what desire is because it is not here, a part of my now. I just am as I exist before any thought is present. In this mystery, in wonder. In this peace compassion and love is born. I think it moves with acceptance, non-judgement, with passive surrender, without reaction, just a calm accepting of whatever is without any desires for it to be anything other than what it is. With no interest is a self that makes it into something.

Who was it that wrote this post?
Whoever it was had the thoughts ideas desires to write it and then share it.