Buddhism and Apathy

That is my point exactly, solitude is something that needs to be done in moderation, otherwise it becomes a self imposed prison. I am all for taking alone time, again it is something that everyone needs to do… although too much alone time is not healthy. I personally treasure the time I get to myself, that being said it is not at the total exclusion of all things external. Have you ever heard of the middle path I wonder? It’s all about balance, you are neither the majority of the time alone or surrounded by others. Freedom in confinement is interesting. When is freedom too much? Easy when it dictates our lives.

It is my opinion that this is an extremist view and if history has taught us anything extremist views rarely are good for the human race as a whole. Surely the fact that his daughter is suffering should be a cause of concern of e-ma’s dad, does Buddhist not teach us compassion and to recognise the pain of others? How can one person be so blinded by their faith and their goal that the suffering of others does not touch them? Is it right, no. Is it the work of the ego, hell yes! To become enlightened you must be attached to the idea of enlightenment for the majority of the journey, otherwise how do you obtain it? So would it be so bad to remain at least somewhat attached to the people closest to us? Buddhism teaches (depending on how you interpret the texts) us unconditional love is the purest form of attachment, surely then it is not something to be avoided?

Just because Buddha reached enlightenment one way it does not make it the only way. In fact how many other people have you heard of that have headed down that exact same path and reached enlightenment…. I mean real enlightenment here not just a case of wishful thinking. I can’t come up with a single person. If the only way to reach enlightenment is to hurt those I care about then you know what it isn’t a goal that I want for myself… how can one be selfish and ignore the suffering of others and obtain true enlightenment?

Ohh and BTW I’m not Buddhist either I have an mind and open heart and I am my own person, I follow my own path and do not attempt to follow the paths taken by other people, because they are not me… I’m willing to do the hard yards lol.

Oh and worry and fear are not the same thing... fear can cause worry yes and vice verca but whilts being linked they are not identical principals. All I did was take what e-ma had said and comment edon it, not interpret what I think it means. Let me ask you do you think e-ma's dad's behaviour is that of a even partially enlightened person??? Without a doubt? If not maybe advice outside of this assumption would be helpful for e-ma?

Hiya, ubiquitous,

Ummm, you might want to read E-mas posts as the full picture of this situation hasn't been given, only her judgement of her father and his religion. In saying that, I'm unable to answer a lot of your questions because they don't relate. So, all the fear, worry, pain, mental dis-ease, suffering etc. being expressed or seeking expression here, is based on unreality, a judgement of another person. We don't know for sure what is going on with ema's father. I'm optimistic. It's my view, that forum posts reveal more about the postee & how they feel about the topic than anything else.

E-ma did mention in a very real way (which seems to be overlooked) that Buddhism has provided a lot of relief and meaning to her fathers life. So, is it selfish of him to pursue a Buddhist religion? I think not.

E-mas "suffering" that I referred to, is suffering of an internal nature, inner conflicts. Buddhist practices are just one way of settling this inner conflict as this conflict is not viewed as our true Buddha-nature.

I think you'll find this can only be overcome by being compassion to oneself and not by changing someone else or "blaming" them and their faith for the conflict. There's a big difference between internal & external expressions of compassion too. But I think you already know this.

Religions, in my view, don't encourage something and then discourage it. And just a thought, I bet Buddhas teachings didn't say, "Hey, practice detachment from material things, and the phanomenal world, but stay attached just a little." That just doesn't make sense. Yeah, seems to depend on how Buddhist texts are interpreted and understood I guess.

I can think of other humans who are like Buddha, enlightened ones, Jesus being one of them. Enlightenment can be obtained by any Man, woman, or child at any time and space. There's nothing that states otherwise. Enlightenment and egolessness awaits us all, just a theory. I'm just as confident that this can be real, just as others are confident that this can be impossible.

As for taking the exact same path, no, thats the beauty about faiths and religions, different paths to the same fulfillment. Different does not equal wrong. Different just is.

And, I really do perceive there are no rules, boundaries, corners, or hard yards on the path to enlightenment except for the ones we create or attract through beliefs. What appears as struggle to one person, may be a walk in the park for another. If that's the case, then perception (how you see the human life you live/experience) is really the only difference. Buddha & Jesus, different teachings and practices that lead to the same enlightenment.

the big question is, with any religion, how far are you willing to go? To the point of enlightenment? Why do many fear the quest?

Originally Posted by angelicious

And a fantastic viewpoint that is Inspiration, I bet this perception, relating to how the universe works, serves you well as it does me.

Yes, it works perfectly when i actually apply it.......it's a path out of creation, right and wrong. judgement etc. Its a way of taking responsibility for what you're experiencing.

"There is nothing within that isn't without . There is nothing without that isn't within." I think Buddha or someone else pretty switched on said this.

Thanks Angelicious i'm glad it resonated with you

How is the one person’s judgement on a situation unreality? I would think that it would make it that person’s reality would it not. You say it is unreality, your judgement on the situation, therefore doesn’t that make your judgment unreality too?

Yes e-ma has said Buddhism a lot of relief, but the questions that remain are: relief from what and at what cost? Is it selfish for him to go about seeking relief I guess depends on the situation. A more dramatic version of this belief would be a person committing suicide… is that selfish? Are they really thinking about all the pain and suffering that they are going to cause or just about ending their own pain. But I digress, is it selfish of him to practise Buddhism? Nope, it is selfish to shut himself off from his family and cause them pain through deliberate actions? My answer to that would be yes! To trot along on one own merry way and to continue to do so with disregard to the hurt and suffering they are helping to create is not only self serving but also the most selfish act a human being can commit, putting ones own happiness above that of all others.

Surely compassion if experienced in the internal state then can make it’s way to the internal… compassion is compassion, you can’t just decide it to be internal or external, it is a way of being, internal and external are thought to have no separation.

Tell me how does one become enlightened then if they are not attached to the idea of enlightenment in the beginning? I believe Buddha also said that he was in the world but not of it. Thoughts?As for Jesus being enlightened I agree, though if you read my post again I was talking about different people needing different paths and not following in the footsteps of others because it worked for them. Not I can’t name any other enlightened people.

Do I fear the quest to obtain enlightenment, nope. The better question is so I want that for myself and for me the answer is no way. From what I can see it is an endless quested mostly utilised by people who have a myriad of problems and don’t want to have to deal with them and are looking for a cosmic out…. Though not all granted. People tend to use these quests to falsely provide their life with meaning and hope, rather than looking inside and addressing the real issues. One day Bob decides his life sucks… quick fix detach from it all and adopt the goal of becoming enlightened…. Bye bye personal responsibility and hello spirituality (not in the true sense) that will solve all my problems. Then we wonder why we suffer in the end, ill intent produces ill results. Though as their journey progresses it is hopeful that they will realise that their inital intent wan't pure and just self serving and modify why they want to achieve their goal. Just my opinion though and with respect to the beliefs of others!

Greetings..

The few people i know or have met that come closest to being "enlightened", hardly understand the concept, and have no self-awareness of "enlightenment".. they are simple people, living well..

Be well..

Originally Posted by Ubiquitous

Tell me how does one become enlightened then if they are not attached to the idea of enlightenment in the beginning? I believe Buddha also said that he was in the world but not of it. Thoughts?

Its my view that it's not that the seeker is attached to the idea of enlightenment, rather, it is enlightenment that is attached to the seeker. It is the nature of spirit, of Buddha Nature that seeks to express itself through man. Thus....

"I am in the world but not of it" - An expression of Spiritual Being having A Human experience.

[size=3][color=#000000][font=Times New Roman][quote=ubiquitous]One day Bob decides his life sucks.....quick fix detach from it all and adopt the goal of becoming enlightened

To me that means that they are open to fully experience the world, but they are not attached to that experience. So where does detachment fit in there? When we detach do we really experience? Buddha said the way to enlightenment is not by depriving ones self. So to deprive oneself of fully experiencing things is supposed to lead to enlightenment how?

[size=3][color=#000000][font=Times New Roman]Are not all of us spiritual beings in some sense, whether we practise spirituality or not

Angelicious the notion of enlightenment essentially means freedom, from craving, the circle of life, death and reincarnation. Your idea that enlightenment is attached to people is opposite to logic. You make it sound as though enlightenment is a being that attempts to take over us and make itself known instead of being a synonym for freedom. How can freedom attach when by it's very nature it is free from attachment? I feel that this comment represents a view designed to distort truth and confuse people and doesn't stand up to any matter of logical investigation. Logically speaking, many of us would agree that many walkers of the Buddhist path would not stand up to the trials to reach enlightenment were they not attached, don't quote me on it (perhaps a poll would be helpful here?) And based on such an assumption, it seems preposterous to believe that many Buddhists on their way to enlightenment would pursue such an elusive goal when it seems that enlightenment is reduced to nothing but more attachment.

It's cool Pathwalker, I'm good with everything either way. That's tolerance. Understanding, I feel, is knowing oneself, and knowing that what is good to one person, may not be good to another, here and now. And that in itself is all good.

I view every living thing and everyone as essentially spirit that is already free & enlightenment and everything pertaining to that aspect. I do my best to express that essence within and appeal to that essense in others. This, in my view, is the purpose of life, to express this spiritual state, to it's fullest potential (not at halves) in every aspect of living life.

Detachment isn't about avoiding the world and the life you're living. It's about letting go of what is not of you, like delusions, and expressing what is of you, like spiritual essence. It's about letting go, in a grasping sense, of all the things that you don't get to take with you when you leave this human existance in/as spirit e.g. material possessions, and everything of this world like trees, family and friends, and everything of the human physical form and the phanomenal world. Attachment to these things, no matter how big or small the attachment, simply leads to suffering either through emotional pain, physical pain, or mental pain. And suffering simply is not our birthright, enlightenment is. It's learning to know the difference.

Why get upset over something when you know getting emotionally upset, isn't going to change it. In my view, you can express all of the emotions, this is healthy and fine. Yet it's projecting all of your emotions onto others that is discouraged. More and more people are living an enlightened life (whether aware of it or not) and spiritually because they are aware of this principle. They opt for constructive expressions through service to humanity (whether aware of it or not).

Hey Angelicious, fair enough. Honestly it sounds like your in a good place and it's not my place or anyone else's to tell you that you're wrong. As you said it's up to the individual to decide upon their own, especially in matters of faith. I'm glad that you said that detachment isn't about avoiding life because i'm in agreeance with you there, i think we just interpreted the situation with e-ma's father differently, i view him as not practicing proper detachment and you do. The truth is if he too is genuinely happy where he is and his beliefs do not harm himself or others, then it doesn't matter what we or anyone else says it wont change anything.
Love n Light
Pathwalker