[From the viewpoint of other religions] Why is the material world so "nasty"?

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

Originally Posted by Molearner

Why is the material world so nasty?

2. Free will is responsible. If all men have free will there will be conflict when those different free wills are different.

i fundamentally disagree.
free will is a celebration of freedom, it is not at war with itself.
conflicts are between non free wills which clash in their definitions.
there is a notion of scarcity -- this is not a directive of free will.
[battles between non free will entities over perceived lacks can be nasty]

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by Indianspirit

why do we incarnate into a world with such "nastyness"?

Why not? What's wrong with "nastiness"? Perhaps you are viewing things wrongly.

According to the Christians it's because of sin but I really haven't heard a good explanation from "spiritualists".

I am not a "spiritualist" nor a Christian but I'd say it's exactly what it is supposed to be for whatever reasons or needs there are for it.

This is kind of a silly question but if we can exist without bodies why jump into a world with bodies that have sweat, blood, and other "secretions" that are not biologically attractive?

Not attractive for who? What's the problem?

Why is there such things as trash?

Why not?

I mean I've heard explanations on like disease, disease exists so people can treat other people and show them love or whatnot... but I mean the world doesn't make much sense switching from an athiest to a "there's more out there" viewpoint.

It makes a lot of sense to me!

What I mean is, a lot of stuff in the world seems unneccessary and silly if there exists a realm where you can have a spiritual body and accomplish pretty much the same things...

Not in my opinion. I need exactly what is here, just as it is.

The reason why this question seems so silly is because these kinds of things we just ignore on a day to day basis.

I don't "ignore" them. Who or what is this "we"? Can you speak for your self here?

But why not just use the astral body as a body? Why have a body that has nose secretions, blood, waste... a world with trash, gooey stuff, repulsive smells when you could concievably design a body that either doesn't have these things (is etherial) or just doesn't respond to them (the brain is nor wired to interpret repulsivity or pain)?

Why not? My body is just fine for my needs.

The Christians say it's sin. What do like "spiritualists" say?

What's wrong with right now, just as it is? This is it - so enjoy it. Love it. Let go, let god. Enjoy the Now.

[firstandlast]

Originally Posted by H:O:R:A:C:E

i fundamentally disagree.
free will is a celebration of freedom, it is not at war with itself.
conflicts are between non free wills which clash in their definitions.
there is a notion of scarcity -- this is not a directive of free will.
[battles between non free will entities over perceived lacks can be nasty]

I think its fundamentally a lack of context that causes free-will to be at war with itself, because we base our ideas of our ideals on axioms we are given in a mechanical sense.. Instead of a unified story that explains our position in reality, we have many different explanations and many different interpretations and all of them with the same goal in mind which is to unify us, but fail to support every perspective in existence--

That is, I think every human being represents a certain force, and even if you were to rid yourself of that human, the force itself would rise as another human or even as an idea in another person-- In this way, such a unifying story almost seems predestined to arise and support all types of people into a unified harmonic where wills are unimpeded--

So it is to me both simultaneously true and untrue that free-will is at war with itself--

[firstandlast]

Originally Posted by Indianspirit

The Christians say it's sin. What do like "spiritualists" say?

I don't know what you would call me; but original sin causes all other sin-- What was the original sin? Eating from the tree of knowledge-- What occurred? We moved from an understanding of our origin as life itself, to a mechanistic understanding that limits us and our abilities to function in a harmonic order--

So, the original sin was beginning to understand the universe in a mechanistic manner, rather then a contextual explanation of our self-- This caused many divisions and opposing forces, because in order for us to understand cause and effect we must understand the parts of cause and effect--

This is what we inherit when we are born into this world, a world of cause and effect mechanistic definition without any context to why we are alive (spirit)-- Thus we do not recognize the material world and spirit, and the spirit world does not recognize the material world as material-- And this is really just a split in perspective-- And as this occurred, our language or ability to communicate the truth was fractured (so we get different religions trying to explain the same thing, and science which is again just the purely mechanistic outlook trying to explain the same thing)--

Thus what ends up happening, is we function in a degrading order; we inherent a mechanistic view of the world and in so a shadow upon yourself, so that you might blame lust, greed, or any other scapegoat as the issue as the cause and effect-- We came into a greater being though from this, the issue is that in order to truly reveal ourselves, we must leave the purely mechanistic understanding to a living one-- And in order to do that on a global scale, a universal scale, one that restores our context and language so that we can once again understand each other.. That cannot be a mechanistic understanding, it must however include the mechanistic understanding--

Originally Posted by H:O:R:A:C:E

i fundamentally disagree.
free will is a celebration of freedom, it is not at war with itself.
conflicts are between non free wills which clash in their definitions.
there is a notion of scarcity -- this is not a directive of free will.
[battles between non free will entities over perceived lacks can be nasty]

Horace,

Thanks for your input. Of course, I differ with you. Free will is an aspect of freedom but like anything else is subject to abuse. Just as we can abuse our freedom we can also abuse free will. IMO, there is no such thing as 'non free will'. I hesitate to quote scripture(knowing it makes some uncomfortable) but Matthew 5:37 comes to mind:

"Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes', and your 'No', 'No', anything beyond this comes from the evil one."

Our free will compels us to say 'yes' or 'no'. I have never known a 'non free will' person.

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

i'll attempt to provide some context for what i sense free will to be.

free will is an unbounded energy. it has no limitations.
non free will is will that has become "frozen" into a form. (temporarily?)
solid objects contain frozen will; concepts can be viewed as things which
require a static will (free will is truly beyond conceptualization, since
that would limit it's potential for expression). non free will expression is
not a bad thing, it provides us with contexts for understanding things...
but it can become a trap which locks us into preordained thinking patterns
and we can limit ourselves through relying on it as the entirety of reality.
it's nice to have objects to relate with (like the sun for example); free will
is not a threat to those things. free will is the aspect of will which allows
things to transform and grow. it is a force of permission, not a force of
limitation: it does not impose rules of order onto things, it is conflict free.

[RyanWind]

Originally Posted by H:O:R:A:C:E

free will... it does not impose rules of order onto things, it is conflict free.

Instead of thinking about free will as an abstract concept, apply it to life. I wake up and habitual reactionary thought begins in my mind. I watch the news and they report something that makes me mad. I then rant about it to a friend. Where is my free will? I am a prisoner to my mind. I am now upset and riled up about this thing I am thinking about. I think, the world is so unfair...

I want freedom from this endless conflict in my mind. So I decide to watch what is in my mind. To not react. To pay attention to the present moment and chose a different state of consciousness. I chose to keep my attention in a higher place. Maybe something on the news is horrible and unfair but I chose to keep my awareness off of it because my goal is a conflict free life.

I have found I need a lot of imposed rules of order to experience freedom. Freedom is me choosing my state of being, not letting my mind chose it. And in that is a very disciplined state of order.

In order to be conflict free, one must impose a sense of order over thought. Every moment I must watch my consciousness and in this awareness, thought does not pull me off into emotions and conflict.

Where is free will? I would say the freedom is to let your consciousness be dictated by your thoughts or to not to. That is the only choice.

[lemex]

Originally Posted by Molearner

Horace,

Thanks for your input. Of course, I differ with you. Free will is an aspect of freedom but like anything else is subject to abuse. Just as we can abuse our freedom we can also abuse free will. IMO, there is no such thing as 'non free will'. I hesitate to quote scripture(knowing it makes some uncomfortable) but Matthew 5:37 comes to mind:

"Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes', and your 'No', 'No', anything beyond this comes from the evil one."

Our free will compels us to say 'yes' or 'no'. I have never known a 'non free will' person.

So true the difficulty of speaking and doing. Free-will in the state of higher consciousness of self, versus lower.

And who is this evil oneb but simply reason.

[firstandlast]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

Instead of thinking about free will as an abstract concept, apply it to life. I wake up and habitual reactionary thought begins in my mind. I watch the news and they report something that makes me mad. I then rant about it to a friend. Where is my free will? I am a prisoner to my mind. I am now upset and riled up about this thing I am thinking about. I think, the world is so unfair...

I want freedom from this endless conflict in my mind. So I decide to watch what is in my mind. To not react. To pay attention to the present moment and chose a different state of consciousness. I chose to keep my attention in a higher place. Maybe something on the news is horrible and unfair but I chose to keep my awareness off of it because my goal is a conflict free life.

I have found I need a lot of imposed rules of order to experience freedom. Freedom is me choosing my state of being, not letting my mind chose it. And in that is a very disciplined state of order.

In order to be conflict free, one must impose a sense of order over thought. Every moment I must watch my consciousness and in this awareness, thought does not pull me off into emotions and conflict.

Where is free will? I would say the freedom is to let your consciousness be dictated by your thoughts or to not to. That is the only choice.

I would caution against such advice, though I have practiced it myself-- The issue is that, acting from your active mind.. regardless of how much you think you are acting only from your active mind.. always works with your reactive mind--

That is, this method could be likened to the equivalent to having a TV, and just changing the channel to something you feel is your active choice.. however, you are still stuck with the options you are aware of; and these options might not suit your heart of heart desires--

However, if you continue to construct abstract ideas and models in your mind, and continue to understand the patterns of your existence.. you can create an unconscious mental map that functions in harmony with your conscious decisions-- That is, you are always manipulated by the unconscious angles you have become aware of and the personalities that are attached to them, these are non-unified aspects of yourself that are strung together loosely, or not even strung together mental maps that are recalled by things in your environment.. which can create all sorts of personalities that your active mind must use as its material--

If you are capable to map out the entirety of existing patterns (reconciling paradoxes, union of opposites, things within things within itself), you can create an unconscious or reactive mind that works in alignment with the spirit of yourself-- And this can extend beyond the body that is often labeled as self into the higher forces that manipulate your surroundings (being an adept at magick)--

That is, if I wish to do something; and something is in my way.. I consider this a conflict in free will; because of this, I do not see my free-will as separate from anyone else-- their free-will, their ability to live without undesired conflict, is the same as mine-- Thus, unless everyone becomes aligned with themselves and becomes more fully themselves; I will still be stuck in this limited form of myself, this limited expression of who I am and what I can do-- But when the spirit is aligned with the choices made.. the universal free-will to be our absolute selves will provide great freedom-- And so, if I say that; then I could never possibly find freedom with my active mind, if my active mind only attempts to enslave and push down the very desires of my unconscious mind and its influence-- I could not find myself, unless I embraced all aspects of my personal self-- And I could not find my fullest expression, unless I embrace all aspects of my universal self-- Whether I like them or dislike them--


In my opinion--

[RyanWind]

The thread started with the thought, why is the world so nasty? My point was a person can take control over what they allow their consciousness to focus on. Like if a thought comes about the world being nasty or some other thing you don't like, you can chose to not give thoughts like this your attention. If your job allows you to do something about the "nastiness" that's a different thing. Then yea think about the problem and fix it. But if you have no power to change the things you don't like, let them go. Keep your mind focused on positive happy things.

In this way, you become a light, and your consciousness makes the world less "nasty." If you take on negative thoughts and negative energy from others, you are feeding that negative energy and you are adding to it. If you refuse to entertain negative energy, you are creating less of it in the world. Yes there are horrible things in the world, there are also wonderful things. We chose which fills our consciousness. But yea like I said, you can still work to change things. Filling your mind with negative thoughts, however, doesn't change anything in a positive way.