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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #1  
Old 27-08-2022, 05:51 AM
Joe Mc Joe Mc is offline
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How and Why

I read something the otherday which conflated the meaning of the words ‘How’ and ‘Why’ in a manner we are all familiar with.
The article said something like, “ Mary shut the window and that is How The window was shut.” “Why was the window shut ? Because Mary shut it,” was the answer.
This is probably common usage of both these terms but I couldn’t help thinking of another usage of the term Why in the context of the spiritual path.

The word 'Why' can be used in a Zen Koan type of way to bring the mind to a stop or a surrender. The word used in this context connotates the Mystery of the Self,
or the Big Mind, God or Awareness itself. People often don’t take kindly to Mystery and need to know the answers to everything. But it does seem that the Non Dual State,
God or the Big Mind cannot be fully or adequately described in words so they remain somewhat stuck in the common usage of the first example of How and Why applied
to the Non Dual State.
When the term Why is used in a Koan like way to stop the mind …it leads to what IS, to IS-Ness if you like. Just my own observation and experience and although probably obvious enough I felt I had to write it down, this somewhat puzzling little post. :)

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Last edited by Joe Mc : 27-08-2022 at 07:31 AM.
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  #2  
Old 27-08-2022, 09:02 AM
JustBe JustBe is offline
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That’s like a mind warp reading that last bit. Haha

I’m still not sure I’m getting how the why as a zen koan way stops the mind? Or did you mean questioning why the thought? So the thought stops?

As seeing through the isness, it ‘just is’ as things are and happening. So if your observing outside of yourself at something, the why still wants reason to the thinking mind, Where as seeing through the being state, there is no (judgement) thought involved, it just is as it is.
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Last edited by JustBe : 27-08-2022 at 12:42 PM.
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  #3  
Old 27-08-2022, 04:19 PM
Joe Mc Joe Mc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustBe
That’s like a mind warp reading that last bit. Haha

I’m still not sure I’m getting how the why as a zen koan way stops the mind? Or did you mean questioning why the thought? So the thought stops?

It can be risky writing this stuff down. I don't usually. I think i was trying to say Why are you here ?, And not because of your father and mother etc. etc. etc. ..but Why are you here ? Everyone seems to know the answer in a common day sense, oh I'm here because i caught the train etc. etc. but im talking about why ? Maybe it's a bit like the Ramana thing of Self enquiry Who am I and tracing the I thought back to its source. The rational thinking mind can never fully explain why it is here ? It doesn't really know why it's here but if the rational mind is halted by the question Why then you come to an answer ?? Anyway ... Did you ever get the feeling you are digging a hole ? lolol.


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  #4  
Old 27-08-2022, 07:42 PM
Ewwerrin Ewwerrin is offline
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I like that, it is what it is. But the isness can only be realised, unconditionally, or preconditionally, by surrendering fully to what is, without thinking about it, as thinking is still of the mind trying to understand, which doesn't allow the realisation of the isness. Or the fuller realisation of the isness.

This happens with momentum. What the awareness focuses upon, causes it to vibrate in likeness to it. With more consistent focus on anything, more momentum of that vibration is gained. If the awareness focuses in complete surrender to the isness of what is here and now, regardless of whatever is, unconditionally, with zero trying or thinking, the isness gains momentum in and of and as the awareness. And when it gains momentum, enough, eventually the manifesting evidence of succesful attainment of the isness is bliss, but at first it will feel like gentle pleasant soothing contentment, if enough consistent momentum is allowed, and as you gains momentum by allowing the state of allowing, yourself to be with the isness and as it, unconditionally, it becomes more unconditional appreciation all the way to bliss. Unless, resistance of the minds old habbitual thought patterns and perspectives become reactivated, then this becomes more painful/intolerable when the momentum of bliss consciousness/awareness is already there. Because it becomes contrast to the taste of pure bliss which exegerates the "out of alignmentness" of those old outdated energetic thought patterns and perspectives.

It is like the idea of an airplane going 200mph in the air without resistance, and introducing old habbitual thoughts to the experience of bliss is like taking that 200mph airplane and putting it on the ground. That's that turbulence. Dissonance. Lack of harmony. Disagreement. That's what happens when the mind tries to understand the bliss and make it its own, trying to own it or become responsible for it or take responsibility for it.

Allot of things can always happen, and when we surrender to the isness unconditionally, we always have the ability to transcend all things through all the positive aspects of it which are naturally realised through bliss. The mind cannot orchestrate all of that. It is not designed to carry that weight of infinite intelligence, unconditional love and eternal wisdom.

So when one surrenders totally to what is, the positive aspects can always be realised under any and all conditions, regardless of any and all conditions, unconditionally, being and becoming evermore effortlessly and naturally here and now, where and when all that exists exists and is being and becoming evermore naturally and effortlessly here and now.

You can transcend time and space, and it may sound nice, and then the mind/ego becomes tested fully. Because at that frequency, it is so infinite, that a tiny little resistance or egoic tendency becomes magnified for the sake of letting it go and transcending it. Yet, even if the despair of introducing the mind takes us back "down" from bliss, there is always evidence of what we experienced that can help us transcend the assumptions and misunderstandings about the experience of bliss that caused it to be experienced as despair.

So it is normal that the mind needs to learn how to adjust to those higher frequencies, needs to become streamlined. The help is always there for the mind to let go of all misunderstandings. Transcend them and let go and let god. No matter how awful the experience seems to be. All negative emotion is just indicating that the mind has activated misunderstandings about the whole experience.

The mind always wants to defend its own misunderstanding because it is SO PAINFUL AND THE EXPERIENCE IS SO REAL. Like that plane 200mph on the ground. But the misunderstanding is causing that pain, and so as the mind tries to defend its point of view and perspective that causes that pain, trying to make other people understand... "But it really happened to me! Bliss is evil! This and that and its all evil." The isness doesnt make those judgements, no matter how awful the experience may seem. Once the isness of it is realised, all the positive aspects of it returns oneself completely back to the same here and now moment that you have always known but with the added perspective of extra knowledge and experience that can also often transcend common dimensional understandings.

Many humans will always introduce thoughts to whatever you are experiencing, the point is that they are part of the isness. And so if you focus too deeply on those manifestations of also those humans and their expressions of thoughts, then you may lose sight of the isness and then the tendency is to blame them for that. "You lied! You caused me to become distracted from the isness." Or something like that. Rather just take responsibility and know, that the isness is unconditionally always here and now always available. And that only WE and where we focus, but rather HOW we focus, is what causes us to introduce resistance to the natural flowless flow of the isness. No matter how awful it seems, it is always us who focuses in resistance to the natural eternal clarity of the isness that is always available under any and all conditions, regardless of any and all conditions, unconditionally, being and becoming evermore here and now.

If there is no goodness in the experience, you woulden't experience it. But to realise the goodness of it, one needs to surrender to the totality of the experience, not fragmented misperceived and misunderstood parts of it that often comes from the mind and only causes more pain more trying and more resistance and more dissonance. The mind cannot know what is. The mind can only know what has already happened.

And my mind has already experienced enough isness to know that it will never be able to understand it or define it. It is too infinite and too simple and too effortless and natural and too obvious and too transcendant for the mind to understand. And so I simply surrender to whatever is. And it keeps becoming better and better. And it will always become worse also, because the mind needs to adjust to the goodness of it by letting go of what is too painful and inappropriate to think/believe in and of and about any experience of bliss/isness or blissness. It is unconditional. So there will always be conditions that become old news. And that need to be let go of in order to allow, accept and allow, and realise the evermore isness of what is and all the goodness of all of it that is always being and becoming evermore naturally and effortlessly here and now.

"Why is this happening to me, why!?" That is not the isness. The isness is much more simple than that. And when we are able to focus on anything that is simple, more consistently, no matter how boring or irrelevant it may seem, the more those resistances fall by to the wayside, and the consciousness naturally transcends them and naturally raises its frequency to its natural clarity of realising naturally evermore the isness of what truely is the isness. This takes patience at first, to stay with the simplicity of something, anything, no matter how boring it may seem, or how simple it may seem. If the focus and awareness is consistently held on it and placed on it, the recalibration is naturally ALLOWED to occur. Because in that process, if you stick with it, resistance is no longer reintroduced and then the natural clarity is naturally allowed to become reastablished. And the only evidence you will have of the consistency of your focus and awareness and placing and replacing it on the simplicity of whatever is, and holding it there , is a good feeling positive energy motional atmospheric feeling/emotion, glimpses at first and when more stabilized then more gentle soothing/pleasant, all the way to unconditional appreciation and bliss.

The why is simple. Because you are worthy. Forever. In the absolute sense. And you can never stop this. No matter how painful it may seem. Even such experiences of "eternal pain" it is a real experience and it comes from the mind, misunderstanding eternity and its your eternal worthiness. "Can even THIS be because I am worthy!?" Yes... And the more you surrender to it and allow it, the more you will allow all the goodness of it to be realised by you. The only effort, NOT TRYING, but effort, is in focusing on simplicity to return back to natural clarity of whatever is of the eternal isness. To let go of resistance that is causing pain and then with clarity returned one can easily investigate the exact flawed ideas and misunderstandings that caused the pain and so easily let go of them that one doesnt even need to do the letting go of them. It is just allowed to be as all that is always has been and evermore blissfully always will be and become evermore naturally and effortlessly and blissfully here and now. Where and when all that exists exists and is being and becoming evermore naturallynand effortlessly and blissfully here and now.
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Old 27-08-2022, 08:34 PM
Ewwerrin Ewwerrin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustBe
... Where as seeing through the being state, there is no (judgement) thought involved, it just is as it is.
Yes, you understand very clearly.

And then all that is left is to simply stay with the isness and the simplicity of it. The effortlessness of it. The allowing of it. The nondoable allowing of all of it. And with enough consistency, and thus momentum, the why always becomes realised, as "Because I am unconditionally Worthy."

The mind will never believe or allow or understand, untill you unconditionally allow the allowing. Then the mind has no choice of its own but to reflect back to you the unconditional allowing that you have allowed.

Not an allowing of a thing or condition. That is step 1. Which may be boring at first, to allow the absolute minimum simplicity, of anything that simply is, resistance free, like "This is the color yellow. This is the color yellow." And to someone who hasn't experienced a resistant free thought in a long while, or positive emotion in a long while, or the natural clarity in a long while, then this step 1 may require a day or two of focus to release enough resistance, and stabilize, in order to really begin to unconditionally allow the allowing.

But to someone who's already used to allowing, they can simply continue the allowing and enjoy it. Naturally and effortlessly.
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Old 27-08-2022, 08:45 PM
Ewwerrin Ewwerrin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Mc
It can be....
...*****************
Yes the process of staying with the isness is always similar to "digging a hole for the mind". Because as momentum increases in unconditional allowing, the misunderstandings of the mind become exegerated, and this can be painful at first. Because the misunderstandings that cause the pain will proof to the mind that "I was right all along! I truely am not worthy, there truely is no hope for me." But that experience can be transcended exactly because you allowed the allowing, which caused momentum, which caused the misunderstanding of the mind to stick out like a sore thumb. And then it can be let go of. And then you can allow more allowing.

If all the misunderstandings are let go of, then the unconditional allowing will take you to the Why. The mind will never believe, or allow, or understand, untill you do the undoableness of unconditionally allowing the unconditional allowing. Then the mind has no choice or will of its own but to reflect back to you, the absoluteness of the whyness of all of it. But as long as there are misunderstandings in the mind, and there often is, they will always painfully stick out, to help you let go of them. And thereby streamline your experience. Because the answer is always available to you, when you let go of the things that stand in the way or that doesn't allow it to be realised by you. And so the resistances of flawed premises that painfully stick out when allowing, is part of the process of allowing, as they come to you so that you can let them go, by allowing them, which helps you realise the flawedness of them, and then they dissapear, because you can no longer hold on to what you already know simply isn't true. That is why you cannot do the allowing. You can only trust the process and eventually the why will be allowed to be realised.

And if you have big desire and allot of resistance or misunderstanding around it, that will naturally come to the surface when you allow. There is no rush, all things in perfect timing. It's all taken care of.
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Old 27-08-2022, 10:33 PM
JustBe JustBe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewwerrin
Yes, you understand very clearly.

And then all that is left is to simply stay with the isness and the simplicity of it. y used to allowing, they can simply continue the allowing and enjoy it. Naturally and effortlessly.
Yes I hear you. Thank you.

I think once your internal balance finds this centredness in self, it’s effortless without need to practice it. I’m not involved with my thoughts nowdays as impeding my expression and movements ‘aware’..
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Old 27-08-2022, 10:36 PM
JustBe JustBe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Mc
It doesn't really know why it's here but if the rational mind is halted by the question Why then you come to an answer ?? Anyway ... Did you ever get the feeling you are digging a hole ? lolol.


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Eeeek!

The hole is overwhelming me Lol

Ok I see now what you meant.

The why leads you back to source too.

Well in fact everything leads you back to source.

You, me, them people..
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Old 28-08-2022, 08:13 AM
Joe Mc Joe Mc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewwerrin
Yes the process of staying with the isness is always similar to "digging a hole for the mind".

Thanks for your post and for giving a different perspective. Definitely staying with this isness will bring up water and as you say the mind will fall apart in a sense
and exaggerate it's role throwing out as it will obstacles and problems. As you say staying steadfast, gentle and on course will bring about the results.
Thank you once again for your pointers and your writing I appreciate it.

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Too much intellectual pride and not enough intellectual beauty

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Old 28-08-2022, 08:30 AM
Joe Mc Joe Mc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustBe

Well in fact everything leads you back to source.

You, me, them people..

Indeed. Perhaps it's a black hole not just an ordinary
navvy hole let's say to use an old fashioned term.

Although everything leads you back to source so true, there are certain
practices that seem supercharged such as meditations, teachings and reflections which lead to awakening. As you know this is and has been an area
of big debate within Non Duality. Some teachers not advocating any practices and some advocating them etc. Some saying
they help and some saying they make no difference.

So if you took a practice like Neti Neti, not this, not that. You may find it to be very powerful at undermining a mind that is overwhelmed by worry etc. etc.
What do you think about practices such as meditation do they lead to a Non Dual state or not ?

I wrote another post with the startling title 'Satan doesn't Exist'. In that post I was trying to say that practices such as meditation reveal to you how much Satan, Ego, deluded mind, exist.
I was trying to draw a comparison to going to a teacher who says no none of these delusions exist, you're fine. And then you go. Oh yeah !!!!! they don't exist !!

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