The spiritual conversation is difficult, and therefore, skillful

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

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Hi 7L as I was reading through this, it took me to my friend in USA who I met a number of years ago. What struck me about her was her ability to remember so deeply her early memories of her life. She had vivid memories (her self awareness was extraordinary by all accounts with what she shares with me) of her carers and other beings around her as a loving presence as well as a deep sense of what was not loving. She had a real sense of what love was as a small infant. She became gifted in this awareness, with an ability to form a very early understanding of the differences in herself(her most important and earliest foundation) her own gifts (vivid baby memories) and her abilities as a small child. (she taught herself to read at age two, was moving objects with her mind in her cradle (so this showed her the power of the mind early on). So when we talk of human potential, it often runs through all these things mentioned in her story that serves the child to know itself that deep and not lose that connection.

My friend retained a deep sense of her true essence in the way she was able to reflect and come to know herself as a baby. Her self awareness early on supported her to know "herself deeper", to know the truth in a more balanced state of awareness of her lived experience. She understand herself and other human potential as a very small infant in her cradle. So for someone like my friend, she has the capacity, from this early point of awareness, to create what she remembers as her true self, a natural life creation supporting this. She never lost sight of who she was deeper in herself. Even as the world and experiences laid over her essence, she still had the capacity to know herself beyond this.

Many people caught up in that loss of self deeper (true self) without full realization of themselves at that depth, can often lose the "awareness" and perception of itself beyond conditioning. I have learned to reach mine through conscious work on self. I was the complete opposite to my friend. Fear over ran my awareness of loving presence. Going as deep as I could to find myself beyond conditioning, to open the awareness of what "feels" now more true to me, which naturally lead me back to her and her earliest understandings and awareness.


As I see this through myself and my friend as the example, you have two streams of the one meeting point of "sameness" and "understanding". Just two different ways of coming together to that point. It is easy for her and I to relate more so, because we both have reached the point of awareness within ourselves that "knows" what is true to our true nature. We both opened this differently of course, in different ways and different experiences, but we both found that meeting point, because we are both "aware" now of our core true essence.

When you find these kind of people together, you know they have nothing to prove, take away, force, challenge or expose of you. There is the awareness deeper of knowing yourself, so you move more open and connected together. The surface nature of exploration and discovery, is not about self preservation and need to fear, but the deeper awareness of self, open and aware of itself complete.

When you feel complete at the core of self, being open and connected has nothing to prove really. It just loves to share and understands itself and other life where it is aware.

So for Jesus, I suspect that he was much like my friend. He had that early point of loving awareness so strong perhaps, that reflected back to him to identify himself as that. That loving awareness would have allowed him to open his gifts (human potential) in ways that most others had most likely suffered and lost touch with.

I have a question for you.
DO you get a sense of others who are more consciously aware of their true self in conversations you have with them? Can you sense the differences in this way? My friend and I often discuss these things, in how when you become more clear in this way of sensing, the presence of others is often felt clear or not clear to the core in themselves. I would say this is because of the clarity of your own awareness in feeling and seeing of yourself of course. There is no other way to be understand this reflection than to know yourself aware in this way. Of course intellectually one can have the deeper understanding we are all have the potential to know ourselves to the true essence of love and joy, but the real sense of another in this way becomes a much more heightened connection of awareness. The more clear you are in knowing yourself, through all streams of self open and clear, the more clear this sense of others becomes as I perceive it now.

I am not asking this to create segregation, but more for the purpose of self reflection and discovery of how you might have perceived your life early on and in others from that view right now?

Nature's flow hello and this is a very nice post and a very interesting share regarding your friend. I confess I am not exactly sure on what you're asking asking me. Is it regarding myself is it regarding others? Maybe you could rephrase? I'm not sure if you if you were asking me this, but I would say that I have always had a strong sense of self regardless of what has transpired in my life and that likewise I think it is natural to resonate with others who also are more deeply centered in their own knowing. If that is what you are asking :) l am good with everyone being who and where they are and just being true to that, wherever that may be.

Just a few general thoughts regarding this thread... I will say that simply because we are in conversation with others (who may or may not understand us , and where we may not be sure where they're coming from either), it doesn't mean that we have any urgency or need to prove ourselves. I would say it's more a question of trying to determine whether or not we have conveyed our meaning as we intended, or if there is any misunderstanding? Likewise have we apprehended the meaning of the other, or has there been some misunderstanding? I think this is also what you're saying about simply loving to share and to receive the share of the other.

Finally I will say l like to have a dialogue where it is transparent that we are being civil to one another. And so if I have any question, I try to word the question in a diplomatic fashion

Peace and blessings,
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

I do not assume you are facile at all, and see where you are coming from (as you use the word "perfected" now - you simply mean continual change/evolution - whereas the God state is perfection in action), with the greatest respect to you 7L, I think the context within which you speak is merely within the human evolutionary form and consciousness. When I speak of spiritual masters, I believe they are both beyond that (whilst being in and of this world as they so choose). There is no disharmony or non-accord between inner and outer work, but the spiritual masters work inwardly first to completion/God actualization. THEN their clarity rings true with the work of the human world and they are informed not only by human matters/thoughts/knowledge but that of the Divine Will and that which is beyond human form/consciousness and the like. There is an important difference here, I believe. As to your point about non-conflation, I made the point because you posit that spiritual masters do not show mastery unless they address gender/class/economic/environmental divide and the like - I do not share your synthesis whatsoever and I do not conflate spiritual mastery with that of wordly matters, although as I said above, spiritual masters, once realized, can choose to utilize their personage in human form in such matters, if they choose to. And again their vantage point on human matters, evolution, consciousness etc. is probably much more evolved than you or I think. i.e. I would not personally assume to think that I know what their vantage point is or call them unperfected - until one also has the same level of knowing as Rumi who knows the form beyond this form, the formation of all form and Universes and the very substance of this life you and I take for real. Of course, at the end of the day though, your opinions are respected, so at the same time, please feel free to hold these opinions and see spiritual teachers such as Jesus, Buddha and the like as unperfected beings etc. I really don't mind, lol I just wanted to share my vantage point.

As I said, all with the greatest respect and admiration for all that you do, and be.

Nor do I believe you are facile in your work or your spiritual aspirations. I apologize if that came across in any way. I am not as good a writer as you are.

Be well, my friend.

BT

Blossom, thank you so much for your kind response. I will just say that I disagree either with your statements as you've laid them out in general, or else I disagree that these things can be known or even exist within our space-time reality (such as incarnated perfection) or I disagree that these things (perfection of consciousness which of course is outside space-time reality) apply only to those we have designated as Masters. Again I've never claimed to designate what constitutes mastery for anyone. Rather only that there are large areas of our humanity and our spiritual journey which have not yet been adequately addressed by any person or tradition thus far. And I personally think that is exactly the work that falls to us today.

So while I completely respect your perspective which you have so thoughtfully stated, I do not agree with the essence of all or most of what you have said. It is simply not my perspective at this time, though there undoubtedly were times when I was more resonant with your perspective. So I think it is very productive to have these conversations while also agreeing to disagree in a mutually respectful fashion. And I think the distinctions that I am it provided were also interesting.

Peace and blessings
7L

[Gem]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Sorry Gem I almost missed this.
I think there is a two-word/two-part answer for that...
"It depends"...

I think there have been deeply transformative figures in recorded human history who have had an outsized effect on the progress of human consciousness, like Jesus and Buddha. With vast and far-reaching influences on the social landscape whether you followed their tradition or not. In both cases the impact was also due to the integrity of their lived selves, IMO. The spiritual attainment that one gains by looking to how these men lived their lives and saw the world has been beneficial to many, for very straightforward reasons...these men's lived selves and their belief systems possessed an integrity and transparency. And from that integrity, they advocated lovingkindness and equanimity. That's it, really.

Yes, They are the two I advocate as well.

On the other hand...these same views have been used to aid in propagation of great wrongs like religious war and the caste system (even if neither of them created the category of caste or war, per se).

I think knowledge is wonderful and should be shared, and that there are many who benefit from the guidance of a teacher AND fellow travellers, at various places on the journey. Perhaps most, even, if the teacher is right and that's another topic. What I meant in my response to Blossom...the needs are individual.

But regardless, we are all works in progress and the onus can't be on the teacher to do your work and his or hers too. So, IMO we have to use this category less to elevate or enshrine someone, and more as a functional one (today, and for you and you, I'm a teacher if I can share something to aid you both on your way...but meanwhile I too am forever a student and you may have knowledge I need as well). In that way, yes, I think the title of teacher and master should be used sparingly unless in the functional sense I described.

So whilst I acknowledge the great contributions of all who have come before, I don't think we are done or they are the pinnacle of humanity and human consciousness, not even the greatest masters. Jesus sets a particularly high bar because he was from a different reality...which as I am learning means you move up to 7D to get to an entirely different 6D multiverse of possibilities and spacetime reality, not even our own. Where folks were already more advanced. Either that, or simply an outlier parallel reality in our own multiverse/reality where things were quite different and folks were much more advanced in consciousness and love. So that he could look at these filters most struggle with and pass through them.

I don't see how anyone knows all that about Jesus.

But you know what the parallel is? Superman, who was just an ordinary dude where he was from and was only above par when he was taken here.

Yes superman is fictional so it's an appropriate example.

If we wonder where is the source of Jesus's humillity (or Cal-El's), it's because they knew this, in the very core of their being. Their different reality gifted them with a higher starting point...like being spiritually wealthy...and provided their own gifts a place of free flourishing. Their elevation was real, but it also points directly at our own human potential. The difference is higher consciousness with a deeper centre in lovingkindness and equanimity, IS possible for us. It's not like flying or bending steel...requiring great gifts that routinely defy laws of physics in our material realm etc. Ultimately, higher consciousness simply requires a great desire and a great perseverance for the work at hand, along with both teachers (lower case "t") and fellow travellers.

The benefit of a person like Jesus is the expansion of our beliefs in what is possible and what our capacities are and not just internally but seamlessly, in the manifestation of the lovingkindness on the ground to one another...in that way, again, IMO you merit the title of teacher. And my hope is, one day very soon, this title will be commonplace, and we will all be both teachers and fellow travellers for one another.

Peace & blessings
7L

In my life, Jesus was used as a disciplinary device, as a guilt trip, and a lie. I don't doubt he was a reasonable feller in RL, but he didn't understand religious consequence and how he would be used in large scale manipulation (same applies to other religion icons).

For me, there is no imaginary figure, so I encounter people on an equal setting.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Nature's flow this is a very nice post, but I confess I am not exactly sure on what you're asking asking me. Is it regarding myself is it regarding others? Maybe you could rephrase? I'm not sure if you if you were asking me this, but I would say that I have always had a strong sense of self regardless of what has transpired in my life and that likewise I think it is natural to resonate with others who also are more deeply centered in their own knowing. If that is what you are asking :) l am good with everyone being who and where they are and just being true to that, wherever that may be.

My apologies. The question I posed to you, was because, I feel in your responses a natural flow of deeper awareness of yourself and others, so I was curious if you remembered early on in your life the awareness of more in yourself and functioned from that essence more so, rather than your own conditioned self. I was more functioning from my conditioned self, so it was my leading function, until I tapped in deeper. My friend had a deeper balance of her true self early on and so functioned more from that point of awareness as her lead throughout her entire life. You have answered my question in part anyway so thankyou, you must have gauged in with some measure of understanding.. As for acceptance of all people as they are, that too is part of the true self as I see it. Total acceptance of yourself, lends its own reflection. Thankyou.

Just a few general thoughts regarding this thread... I will say that simply because we are in conversation with others (who may or may not understand us , and where we may not be sure where they're coming from either), it doesn't mean that we have any urgency or need to prove ourselves. I would say it's more a question of trying to determine whether or not we have conveyed our meaning as we intended, or if there is any misunderstanding? Likewise have we apprehended the meaning of the other, or has there been some misunderstanding? Finally I like to have a dialogue where it is transparent that we are being civil to one another. And if I have any question, I try to word the question in a diplomatic fashion

Peace and blessings,
7L

[/quote]

As for you final comments. You are a good model of perseverance and understanding, even as you disagree with others, you do model all what you have shared really positively. That to me is a great role model for those of us, me included. The difference I note with you is that your clearer and you do this with grace, there is no force involved or ill feelings ever conveyed through your posts, surface or underlying. And I am aware of this ongoing. Its a great model of deeper awareness in the art inclusiveness in conversations, with those a little more challenging in their approach. :)

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Gem

Yes, They are the two I advocate as well.

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I don't see how anyone knows all that about Jesus.

Sorry I didn't explain but it's just my own understanding, based on some conversation with a guide. Obviously nothing I can "prove", so I understand where you're coming from.

My point is that he may be exceptional here because he's not from here in the way we all are, as I understand it. Nonetheless he is (or was, w/e) human and has human consciousness, so even if he sets a high bar, and even if (let's say) he got a head start by incarnating in a place much more advanced than this place, nonetheless it is potentially doable because we too are human and have human consciousness. Shifting the bounds of what is possible and doable is a huge part of it, along with the two main items (lovingkindness, equanimity).

Yes superman is fictional so it's an appropriate example.

Heheheh. But I also feel that it's both possible and appropriate for humanity to be that humble in the face of one's great gifts. Thus, we get why Cal-El is humble but we also get why anyone who lives in an enlightened place in one or many incarnations would (& perhaps should) be humble when coming back to a less enlightened place as an act of love and service. Because they have benefitted as a regular joe "over there" what we have not yet manifested for one another.

In my life, Jesus was used as a disciplinary device, as a guilt trip, and a lie. I don't doubt he was a reasonable feller in RL, but he didn't understand religious consequence and how he would be used in large scale manipulation (same applies to other religion icons).

For me, there is no imaginary figure, so I encounter people on an equal setting.

I think many would sympathise. It took me many years to acquaint myself with Jesus the humble joe, since the institutions were such a turn-off. I still struggle with them and strive to focus on the wisdom available under the different umbrellas.

Re: equal footing, I do the same, or certainly I strive to do so.
I personally think that is really a deeply valuable aspect of the journey, equal in its way to all else.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

My apologies. The question I posed to you, was because, I feel in your responses a natural flow of deeper awareness of yourself and others, so I was curious if you remembered early on in your life the awareness of more in yourself and functioned from that essence more so, rather than your own conditioned self. I was more functioning from my conditioned self, so it was my leading function, until I tapped in deeper. My friend had a deeper balance of her true self early on and so functioned more from that point of awareness as her lead throughout her entire life. You have answered my question in part anyway so thankyou, you must have gauged in with some measure of understanding.. As for acceptance of all people as they are, that too is part of the true self as I see it. Total acceptance of yourself, lends its own reflection. Thankyou.

As for you final comments. You are a good model of perseverance and understanding, even as you disagree with others, you do model all what you have shared really positively. That to me is a great role model for those of us, me included. The difference I note with you is that your clearer and you do this with grace, there is no force involved or ill feelings ever conveyed through your posts, surface or underlying. And I am aware of this ongoing. Its a great model of deeper awareness in the art inclusiveness in conversations, with those a little more challenging in their approach. :)

Naturesflow, that last is very kind and I must say you yourself are ever gracious and deep in your thoughts.

As to the first part, thank you for explaining further - I see now what you are asking & glad I got part of it up front! Yes, very insightful of you...I do feel the flow or the energy as much as the words themselves, as I reckon many do here on SF...it's a bit of a relief, eh? And it does involve being at the level of flow, of energy flow, underneath or foundational to matter. The realm of consciousness and of the heart centre. For this reason I sometimes take a more roundabout tack when answering a question, to address where I feel or apprehend they are seated at the mo. I feel you do this as well and likely for similar reasons. Also, we have a lot of water in our chart, haha

I have always been aware of some things since childhood, including energy and past lives but most of all the critical awareness of how vital love is and how important it is to mend fences and to speak our love. How we should try never to say deeply hurtful things. I knew the depth and texture of these lessons from very early childhood, from when I can first recall memories. They were already there from the beginning, and I did wonder why it was that not everyone had this same deep, rich, and textured understanding carried forward in their centre.

However, in my rural childhood, I also saw many did possess a depth of wisdom apart from formal education, gained at least in part from their current life experiences and reflections -- a process which I recognised as touching on their authentic being, what I might now call their oversoul -- and yet I noted that many adults in the modern era increasingly lacked this depth of awareness and that has made the world a bit of a strange and rather poignant place. For they know not what they do, nor especially what they've lost. And they've not yet become aware of who they are, nor who they've been.

Peace & blessings & g'night!
7L

[Gem]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Sorry I didn't explain but it's just my own understanding, based on some conversation with a guide. Obviously nothing I can "prove", so I understand where you're coming from.

My point is that he may be exceptional here because he's not from here in the way we all are, as I understand it.

Superman is an interesting character among superheroes because whereas other superheroes put on masks to conceal their identity, Superman removes his mask to become who he really is. People don't even recognise him without the mask, and they don't recognise the mask when he wears it.

Nonetheless he is (or was, w/e) human and has human consciousness, so even if he sets a high bar, and even if (let's say) he got a head start by incarnating in a place much more advanced than this place, nonetheless it is potentially doable because we too are human and have human consciousness. Shifting the bounds of what is possible and doable is a huge part of it, along with the two main items (lovingkindness, equanimity).

Heheheh. But I also feel that it's both possible and appropriate for humanity to be that humble in the face of one's great gifts. Thus, we get why Cal-El is humble but we also get why anyone who lives in an enlightened place in one or many incarnations would (& perhaps should) be humble when coming back to a less enlightened place as an act of love and service. Because they have benefitted as a regular joe "over there" what we have not yet manifested for one another.

I think people have preconceived notions about enlightened ones and how they should be. What if the enlightened one is just a regular person, a foot soldier, perhaps, who loves steak, beer and rugby, and has no grand delusions that he's here on some sort of fantastic mission.

I think many would sympathise.

They probably see through the charade as well.

It took me many years to acquaint myself with Jesus the humble joe, since the institutions were such a turn-off. I still struggle with them and strive to focus on the wisdom available under the different umbrellas.

Re: equal footing, I do the same, or certainly I strive to do so.
I personally think that is really a deeply valuable aspect of the journey, equal in its way to all else.

Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Cat, hello there. No, that's not what I intended to convey, but to have a conversation is to encounter just these difficulties in conveyance of meaning

I was saying only that we are not perfected. The masters are not perfected. The teachings are not perfected. Perhaps the masters are farther along in some ways. Yet not in others and there is no uniformity, of course. We are all individuals.

I hope that this explains better and if not, apologies and no disrespect intended.

Peace & blessings
7L

Thank you for clearing that up.
I didn't feel any disrespect so there you go..

With Love
Eelco

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

So whilst I acknowledge the great contributions of all who have come before, I don't think we are done or they are the pinnacle of humanity and human consciousness, not even the greatest masters. Jesus sets a particularly high bar because he was from a different reality...which as I am learning means you move up to 7D to get to an entirely different 6D multiverse of possibilities and spacetime reality, not even our own. Where folks were already more advanced. Either that, or simply an outlier parallel reality in our own multiverse/reality where things were quite different and folks were much more advanced in consciousness and love. So that he could look at these filters most struggle with and pass through them.

But you know what the parallel is? Superman, who was just an ordinary dude where he was from and was only above par when he was taken here. If we wonder where is the source of Jesus's humillity (or Cal-El's), it's because they knew this, in the very core of their being. Their different reality gifted them with a higher starting point...like being spiritually wealthy...and provided their own gifts a place of free flourishing. Their elevation was real, but it also points directly at our own human potential. The difference is higher consciousness with a deeper centre in lovingkindness and equanimity, IS possible for us. It's not like flying or bending steel...requiring great gifts that routinely defy laws of physics in our material realm etc. Ultimately, higher consciousness simply requires a great desire and a great perseverance for the work at hand, along with both teachers (lower case "t") and fellow travellers.

The benefit of a person like Jesus is the expansion of our beliefs in what is possible and what our capacities are and not just internally but seamlessly, in the manifestation of the lovingkindness on the ground to one another...in that way, again, IMO you merit the title of teacher. And my hope is, one day very soon, this title will be commonplace, and we will all be both teachers and fellow travellers for one another.

Peace & blessings
7L

There's a lot of imagination required to hold the beliefs as you state them above.
Cal-el's humility was just a figment of someones imagination. An ideal to hold on to or aspire to perhaps but hardly truthful as Cal-el never existed outside a storyline

Jezus said he was the son of god. That can mean a lot of things, but doesn't necessarily rule out he was also a son of man and didn't descend from some hierarchically perceived higher dimension. What went wrong there was that the projections of the students unto the master took on such proportions after jezus died that he could not steer them a little more in the right direction.

Why I tend to follow the teachings of the buddha is that they were written down fairly consise and close to the man's passing(between 50 and 300 years). As opposed to a bible that was put together some 1200 to 1500 years after the man had passed.
Also these teachings (Buddha's) cover a vast array of viewpoints due to the fact he taught for 40 odd years as opposed to jezus 3 to 8 years?
Giving the buddha an opportunity to adress misconceptions and clarify what was misunderstood.

You've opted for 3 theme's that are often not addressed by teachers. I think you'l find the Buddha addressed and exemplified all 3.

With Love
Eelco

[muffin]

Good afternoon all

Happily sitting in the the corner, munching out on popcorn, with an ice cold beer