Energy in Buddhism

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Do you think he is on the right path as far as Buddhism is concerned?

Do you think the is highly advanced and has a deep realization?

What would help him the most, encouraging him to continue on with his beliefs and not do any practices or to challenge him, to get him to learn and to practice? Which one of those two options could have the most positive impact on his life?

Now, my friends would tell me to ignore him, to not bother, all I am doing is making myself look bad. I would rather look bad and help someone than to ignore them and let them continue being lost.

Maybe you disagree with me or just don't like my means. Probably both. (snarky outro)

I'm not one to relegate people to relative positions on a status quo because it supposes who is and who is not worth listening to, whereas from my perspective where individuals are of equal worth, I always listen, but I don't agree and disagree to create false dichotomies of right and wrong. Rather I reply within the context of what what was said and attempt to point out the merits and flaws in what is said with some sort of rational explanation. You see, the meditation is the listening (not the telling), and exactly as phayln said, and as Just Be often remarks, being conscious of the internal affect on myself so that I know what's going on with myself as opposes to 'know not what I do'. This is the essence of what I advocate, and if you agree or disagree, that doesn't matter. It only matters if you are aware of how the mind leaps and grasps to agree and disagree internal to youself.


Since this is how I conduct myself (at least to my best ability), I simply preach what I practice, and it doesn't matter to me if one person is experiencing chakras and another experiences mundane physical vedana. It only matter if you are aware of how you are affected by the experiences and how that affect incites the nature of your volition.


From my perspective, because Buddha did not promote 'energy and chakras' and so forth, and because these sorts of things were handled in a particular way in my school, this thread has been exterior to Buddhist principles from the outset. This is not to say there are not energy experiences resultant from Buddhist meditation practice (which is mindfulness). It's just that these experiences are no different in essence to any mundane physical experience, but more like a subtler aspect of the mundane, as well being a freer movement of sensation resulting from resolving the older sankaras through increasingly subtle conscious awareness.


What I can say to you personally is, be less concerned with others and your influence over them and start to become more relentlessly and continuously self-aware, and you will find that the greatest benefit you can bring to others is your own self-awareness. The things we have within, like our own needs, desires, conflicts and resistances are so often projected onto others and we tend to misconstrue making others meet our own expectations with helping them, and wherever helping arises as a desire, we're pretty sure to have our own internal need which is the actual volition.


Fundamentally speaking, this requires careful attention with deep honesty because the ego is very tricky and we will make up stories and images of ourself and others to fortify such fallacies of self-hood, so each time the self image appears, it's not self, not me; but also, not you, not him, not her, not them.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Gem

I'm not one to relegate people to relative positions on a status quo because it supposes who is and who is not worth listening to, whereas from my perspective where individuals are of equal worth, I always listen, but I don't agree and disagree to create false dichotomies of right and wrong. Rather I reply within the context of what what was said and attempt to point out the merits and flaws in what is said with some sort of rational explanation.

I believe I did that. You called me pointing out flaws using Buddhist teachings as a base.. just telling someone they are wrong.
Is this an example of it's okay for you but not others because you are so self aware?

You see, the meditation is the listening (not the telling), and exactly as phayln said, and as Just Be often remarks, being conscious of the internal affect on myself so that I know what's going on with myself as opposes to 'know not what I do'.

Meditation is an all the time thing. Part of it is listening, paying attention to within.. But the listening isn't just listening to someone speak and being polite. I highly encourage you to read up on Insight Dialogue for a great method.

This is the essence of what I advocate, and if you agree or disagree, that doesn't matter. It only matters if you are aware of how the mind leaps and grasps to agree and disagree internal to youself.

Since this is how I conduct myself (at least to my best ability), I simply preach what I practice, and it doesn't matter to me if one person is experiencing chakras and another experiences mundane physical vedana. It only matter if you are aware of how you are affected by the experiences and how that affect incites the nature of your volition.

That is a good practice but that is purely at the thinking stage. So long as people are aware of how their experiences impact their will you are happy they are following the Buddha's path... nothing else needs be done..

We have a different view. There is much more beyond that.

From my perspective, because Buddha did not promote 'energy and chakras' and so forth, and because these sorts of things were handled in a particular way in my school, this thread has been exterior to Buddhist principles from the outset.

In your school you can't be a Buddha... Oh what is your tradition again?

Are you putting down different traditions because it doesn't fit your belief system?

Are you subtly telling people what to do by telling them energy, chakras isn't buddhism and you know better?

This is not to say there are not energy experiences resultant from Buddhist meditation practice (which is mindfulness).

Again, the authority. Is mindfulness the only Buddhist meditation practice? That's new and not even historically accurate.

Also, notice how you are telling people what method to use for meditation or they are not really Buddhist.

It's just that these experiences are no different in essence to any mundane physical experience, but more like a subtler aspect of the mundane, as well being a freer movement of sensation resulting from resolving the older sankaras through increasingly subtle conscious awareness.

All my post's on Buddha Nature and even within this thread and you still don't know what energy really is.

What I can say to you personally is, be less concerned with others and your influence over them and start to become more relentlessly and continuously self-aware, and you will find that the greatest benefit you can bring to others is your own self-awareness. The things we have within, like our own needs, desires, conflicts and resistances are so often projected onto others and we tend to misconstrue making others meet our own expectations with helping them, and wherever helping arises as a desire, we're pretty sure to have our own internal need which is the actual volition.

What, are you telling me what to do?

Are you maybe projecting all these desires and conflicts onto me?

Honestly it is pretty funny that you can attack someone because you view them as telling someone what to do and then make a large post doing the exact same thing.

See it yet?

Fundamentally speaking, this requires careful attention with deep honesty because the ego is very tricky and we will make up stories and images of ourself and others to fortify such fallacies of self-hood, so each time the self image appears, it's not self, not me; but also, not you, not him, not her, not them.

Maybe use this post as a self lesson perhaps?

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by django

Yeah, I’m old school, do all the work preparing first, clear obstructions, which takes many many years, and the heart will follow. Not as one of the first things, but one of the last. Reading floridly poetic words about the heart doesn’t actually open the heart IMHO, to me words like these are not deep, they’re just another ego attachment to get caught up in with the mind.

Well,

Your heart is already open and you are at the stage where you can feel energy around you and from others.

Those words are describing Universal Mind.

It's not silence,

There is a oneness it is part of all things.

It is moving, creating, throbbing//shakti/energy and yet at the same time a dynamic stillness/silence/void.

Void=form..

The Heart is used as a physical heart, a Chakra located in the center of your chest and lastly, or it's true meaning as Universal Mind. So, you are right it will be the last thing to open or realize.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by JustBe

Are you in control of lost souls or aware your lost trying to control something you have lost touch with yourself?

Oh a new approach.. lost souls..

Challenging someones made up view of what enlightenment is when they are far from it is not about control. It is not about having lost touch of something within myself either.

Maybe look at it this way. If someone is lost but looking for the way. Do you at least point them in the right direction or do you sit back and just let them stay lost?

It is amazing how people think the best answer is let them stay lost until they figure it out on their own.

When you understand yourself as the lost soul, who’s no longer lost, the view changes remarkably. From one of, “I need to help you to not be lost” -“I need to help myself so I am not lost in this”

When you are not lost, do you not hold up the light for others to see?

The support towards others is now viewed through your new awareness and what might you perceive that could be?

What moves do you feel you might take then?

Depends on the person doesn't it? Some you can offer to directly help without words. Some a post might help. Others are so caught up in their belief system that nothing anyone can say will help them.

Mostly what you find here is people who believe they have the answers and it reinforces their belief to do nothing at all. No, practices, theirs nothing deeper or they are enlightened and super deep, they got it figured out.

Now, if someone wants to post their belief system and how they have it figured out that is great. Do it in another section of the forum or be ready to directly show me that you are enlightened. If you have no idea what I am talking about then you are far from it.

If you want to learn Buddhism then your beliefs that are contrary to Buddhism and that is all you ever post is your beliefs while never even attempting to learn Buddhism is considered rude.

This is the Buddhism section, we are in this section to learn about Buddhism.

How many threads have you started with anything related to Buddhism in this section after all these years participating in this section?

Are you learning Buddhism or talking about lost souls which isn't Buddhism?

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by Gem

The mind and thought is an object of mindfulness, so rather than pointing away from the mind, Buddhism points directly at it.

Maybe we could say mind become an object apart from self or me (doubted/recognized/understood as it arises) as opposed to the norm which is personal identification with mind. One does not really "look" at mind if one is perceiving it as me. If I am personally attached to something, like a piece of cake in the fridge, I defend it from others. If it's not "my" cake I don't care about it. Likewise, our opinions, thoughts, and beliefs are things we are normally "personally" attached to. So we have a "reason" to defend them.

But then a mysterious part is intelligence and understanding and even knowledge exists in consciousness itself (me) apart from the same aspects that exist in the physical brain. Like mirror images of each other, thus one reason why identification is the norm and hard to overcome. One has to discern or come to understand or experience which is me and which is not me.

Originally Posted by Gem

So they say, but I think it is misleading because it conjures imaginary states that are then desired, and then we just continue doing what we have always done, chase desire and run from aversion, which is the very 'craving' said to cause suffering. It is a lot less romantic than the sages like to suppose for the Buddha said craving is cause of suffering, and the cessation of craving it's solution.

Yea one in "ego" will bring in the concept of time as well as concepts of what they are seeking. So imagination comes in full force. As the sages have related, it is only right now. Let go of all that "seeking" here and now. Let go of goals as well. Change cannot happen if one keeps seeking "it" in the normal ways. "It" is this here now and about what I am adding or not adding to this now. When I stop, full stop, adding here and now, "this" and "it" and "me" have changed and this changed state is not seeking, wanting, desiring, judging, it is just a highly aware self discarding what does not belong and then experiencing this without resistance or aversion in one sense. We are averse to delusion!

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

or to challenge him, to get him to learn and to practice?

Really this only happens on the internet. If your boss or spouse or mother or father or children or other real life friends or relatives were "not following your teachings" would you be as motivated to tell them of their faults? Probably not as you know it would not have a positive impact on your life. But yes online with strangers on a forum one can judge and criticize and judge others with impunity.

im·pu·ni·ty
/imˈpyo͞onədē/
Learn to pronounce
noun
exemption from punishment or freedom from the injurious consequences of an action.

I like your posts as they provide opportunities to respond. Also, "personally directed" judgement and criticism is a good way to see where we are as far as non-attachment to such things, non attachment to this "ego." Judging others or telling others what "they" should be doing is an odd thing when one is not really a teacher with voluntary students asking to hear what one thinks about them. But this is a wonderful place to read opposing views and ponder things.

The whole "who is spiritual" thing to me is about love and kindness. The idea of being advanced "spiritually" and still being aggressive and judgmental is not based on reality to me. It's not that I don't judge you so "I" am spiritual, nor do I be nice or loving to appear "better," no I don't judge because I honestly see no difference between you and I, he or she, me or them. We are all the same, exactly the same, all divine and perfect as we are! Now when I say "I don't" I mean in the collective humanity, not I myself as I might or might not judge depending on what within I am identifying with in any particular moment. But the ideal is to have the realization we are all the same, which is a realization of truth, and if that is present, there can be no judgement of others. One is merely aware of what each perfect "one" is manifesting and projecting in any given moment. One can "go off" on another and seconds later be petting their dog lovingly and smiling.... what is real? What is the person? None of that, but that kernel inside, the me under all this other stuff and noise, that peace and expansive love.

We manifest different things, but under all this surface stuff we are divine and perfect. There is nothing about us to change or improve. Buddhism is just asking us to get off the ride and love. There is nothing to do or achieve or become or experience, nothing at all. We are divine and perfect as we are and so is everyone else. What we do is not what we are. What we think is not what we are. What we are is what we are seeking. When we cease to identify with all we are not, we identify with what we are, and what we are is infinite peace and compassion and love. "It" is always here now in it's totality. We can't add to it or subtract from it. We can ignore it by keeping our attention elsewhere on other things, but it remains as it cannot leave us as it is us.

Will we know it fully or directly in this lifetime? Probably not. But we can tap into it in large or small ways through love. Unconditional love for ourselves and others. We can be aware of delusion, ignorance, negativity, hate and on and on and still love, still perceive the perfect entity under all of this other stuff.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I believe I did that. You called me pointing out flaws using Buddhist teachings as a base.. just telling someone they are wrong.
Is this an example of it's okay for you but not others because you are so self aware?

Pointing out a flaw entails explaining the breakdown in the reason or logic, and not just telling someone that they are wrong.

Meditation is an all the time thing. Part of it is listening, paying attention to within.. But the listening isn't just listening to someone speak and being polite. I highly encourage you to read up on Insight Dialogue for a great method.

I does have a lot to do with listening to what people say, because I didn't say it was just listening to someone and being polite.

That is a good practice but that is purely at the thinking stage. So long as people are aware of how their experiences impact their will you are happy they are following the Buddha's path... nothing else needs be done..

I didn't say that either.

We have a different view. There is much more beyond that.

In your school you can't be a Buddha...

According to what I was taught, Buddha is not a person, so no one can be, has been or will be a Buddha. Buddha refers to 'the quality of enlightenment' within everyone. The meditation is for the purification of beings, overcoming sorrow, walking the path of truth and the attainment of nirvana. The process is a purification that begins on the surface of the mind and proceeds to the subtlest/deepest levels. By removing the stuff that blocks the channel, the flow moves freely through the animate life form. According to the teaching nirvana is already there, and the path is not to move forward in time and get it the future, but to stay right here and move from the gross to the subtle levels. According to the teaching, 7 years, 6 years, 5,4,3,2 or 1 year; 7 months, 6, 5,4,3,2, 1 or even 1/2 a month or 7 days, "one of two results may be expected: in this very life highest wisdom or, if a substratum of aggregates remains, the stage of non-returner."

This is a crude outline of the principles as I studied them, but the studies themselves are very nuanced and intricate.

Oh what is your tradition again?

Are you putting down different traditions because it doesn't fit your belief system?

Are you subtly telling people what to do by telling them energy, chakras isn't buddhism and you know better?

As I explained in my previous post, energy experiences are resultant from the practice so we can say they are entailed in 'Buddhism', but it's also important to understand that such experiences are regarded equally with mundane physical experiences due to all experience being impermanent in nature.

Again, the authority. Is mindfulness the only Buddhist meditation practice?

Yes. Mindfulness, insight, vipassana is Buddhist meditation and all the Buddhist schools teach this art, as well as the metta meditations which are intricately related. Other schools teach other things, and that can be called Buddhist as well, but mindfulness is common to all the schools. Furthermore, mindfulness is universal in application, and not sectarian in nature.

That's new and not even historically accurate.

Also, notice how you are telling people what method to use for meditation or they are not really Buddhist.

Being Buddhist or not Buddhist is is irrelevant since meditation us universal.

All my post's on Buddha Nature and even within this thread and you still don't know what energy really is.


What, are you telling me what to do?

Are you maybe projecting all these desires and conflicts onto me?

Honestly it is pretty funny that you can attack someone because you view them as telling someone what to do and then make a large post doing the exact same thing.



Maybe use this post as a self lesson perhaps?

Of course. I always (well... usually, at least) know what people are saying in context with what is going on with myself. It's not a lesson where I learn stuff. It's more like something that requires close attention. At first attention wavers a lot and you lose track of what you're doing, but with each remembrance, the attention becomes more firmly rooted in the actuality of momentary existence.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

Maybe we could say mind become an object apart from self or me (doubted/recognized/understood as it arises) as opposed to the norm which is personal identification with mind. One does not really "look" at mind if one is perceiving it as me. If I am personally attached to something, like a piece of cake in the fridge, I defend it from others. If it's not "my" cake I don't care about it. Likewise, our opinions, thoughts, and beliefs are things we are normally "personally" attached to. So we have a "reason" to defend them.

Yes, reactivity, including defensive reactions, have a 'me' attached to them (I'm alluding to psychological reactivity; not reflexes).

But then a mysterious part is intelligence and understanding and even knowledge exists in consciousness itself (me) apart from the same aspects that exist in the physical brain. Like mirror images of each other, thus one reason why identification is the norm and hard to overcome. One has to discern or come to understand or experience which is me and which is not me.

Indeed.

Yea one in "ego" will bring in the concept of time as well as concepts of what they are seeking. So imagination comes in full force. As the sages have related, it is only right now. Let go of all that "seeking" here and now.

Yes. One has to stop seeking to see what is 'already'.

Let go of goals as well. Change cannot happen if one keeps seeking "it" in the normal ways. "It" is this here now and about what I am adding or not adding to this now. When I stop, full stop, adding here and now, "this" and "it" and "me" have changed and this changed state is not seeking, wanting, desiring, judging, it is just a highly aware self discarding what does not belong and then experiencing this without resistance or aversion in one sense. We are averse to delusion!

It might be a language trap, I don't know, but there is in people a desire for desire and aversion to aversion as a life real trap. If we envisage this personally, imagine you meditate and you see the desire for energy experience arises, then you know meditation is 'free of aversion and craving', so you react with aversion to the desire that arose... envisioning this scenario, can you see how this is is only a continuation of what we do with regard to objects in the world and recognise that as a dynamic in itself?


In the same sense, you can be full aware of your propensity to delusion and do nothing about it other than know it is true that this propensity is there. It is either there or it not there. Nothing else. When you are aware of it as a simple fact of how it is, you'll know already...

[winter light]

Originally Posted by django

Examining what a chakra is a bit further, just taking one of the major ones, the heart, perhaps it can fruitfully be seen as this:
...
Different realms of consciousness may be mental consciousness rising through the pingala side channel, emotional consciousness rising through the ida side channel, and kundalini consciousness rising through the centre channel and staying in the heart centre. When these channels and consciousnesses are not flowing freely, the heart chakra may be seen as ‘under-utilised’. Ramana always talked about kundalini in the heart as the true centre, and the true Self. I think there is more, that there is also a head centre, but just examining one centre is enough for the moment.

Yes most everything I've done with chakras has been centered around the heart.

I have also noticed pairs of chakras tend to work in parallel with one another also. Disturbance in 2nd chakra and get a 6th chakra headache. Emotional energy stored in 3rd chakra relating to verbal speech in 5th chakra. All centered around the heart. For observing symbolism of physical and emotional issues. This is in addition to the normal 7 chakra patterns of symbolic interpretation.

After a while I just centered in the heart while watching breathing while maintaining awareness of the whole system. Like a sphere. Has been a very useful model for a long time. I thought it would have ended there. But still it seems every time I get some insight I can reflect it against the symbolism of each of the chakras one by one, each one offering a different perspective. And collectively deeper than just a single system.

[winter light]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

... In Dzogchen, it is
awareness and emptiness. In tantra, it is bliss and emptiness. Bliss, though
not confined to physical sensation, is based in sensation.

Tantric practice is meant
to transform all experience into bliss: all feelings in the body into bliss, all
external vision into blissful vision of the pure lands, all perception of other
beings into perception of buddhas, all sounds into sacred mantras. The practices
are not about pretense. Practice leads to control over perception and
cognition, and freedom from negative conditioning. The true situation of
things is modeled in the imagination and developed in experience in order
to overcome perceptual and cognitive distortion. The real situation is fully
realized only when the practitioner stabilizes in the nature of mind. A buddha
of compassion, love, and openness can manifest in the heart chakra, as can
a demon of anger and jealousy. All of us have positive and negative experiences.
...
.

These posts #62 to #65 were helpful. Though a lot to digest so just commenting on this section.

I can relate to the Tantra observations. But my methods are different. Based essence of the energy while paying attention to the psychology of my reactions.

Most recently I noticed I could go into Pure Lands spontaneously in a present moment. And would immerse completely into a sudden bliss and forget about my worldly experience. Note that this is also like a communion and the bliss is meaningless without that relationship with those others.

But then I come back, and realize I have returned to a world where there are others who do not know of this experience. And there is a shock of sadness. Knowing that the others here have no understanding of this and it cannot be shared by telling them about it because it makes no sense to them.

The relationship becomes again incomplete. So while in the world I am not very interested in chasing bliss while knowing others are for whatever reason excluded. It is not self denial though. I can go back whenever I wish. It is more like somehow aligning myself to the essence of wherever I am. Knowing that at some level, this is all that matters to me.