Free Will vs Divine Ordaination

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Thank you. I've heard people speaking about the wave and the ocean. Is the wave the ocean or part of the ocean? Because the wave has individual characteristics does it mean that it is not part of the ocean ? Because there is thought, discrimination, choices or preferences going on doesn't mean that there is seperation ? We could say that the wave is seperate from the ocean on some level at least as we can identify and discriminate it as a wave.

the wave is an expression of energy that travels through the medium of ocean.
it's not a portion of ocean, nor is it composed of water.
similarly, thirty-six inches is not composed of wood simply because it may be
marked on a yardstick.

[r6r6]

An ocean wave is part of the ocean and is composed of salt water. It irrational, illogical and lacks common sense to think otherwise. imho.

The ocean most likely always have waves, but they can vary in length, height, width and speed.

I once went to gulf of Mexico and the water was nearly as still as lake or pond water with not wind ergo minimal to no wave, or so it seemed.

r6

Originally Posted by r6r6r

Free will is about metaphysical-1, mind accessing creatures and their concerns about good and evil.
"U"niverse / God / Uni-Verse is not about good and evil, for the most part.
r6

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by H:O:R:A:C:E

the wave is an expression of energy that travels through the medium of ocean.
it's not a portion of ocean, nor is it composed of water.
similarly, thirty-six inches is not composed of wood simply because it may be
marked on a yardstick.

I think within Non Duality there have been many metaphors used to try and give a flavor or a pointing to what non duality might mean ..if it can be explained at all within the arena of the human mind. So the Wave and Ocean is one, there are many more, the Sun and the suns rays etc. I live in Ireland and was raised with the Catholic Culture i suppose which is a highly metaphorical and symbolic Religion so im quite comfortable with using metaphors to point and suggest things.
" A Wave is not composed of water ?" Really ! What is it composed of ? Wood ? So you talking about language are you ? How we use it to designate what we mean ?

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

I think within Non Duality there have been many metaphors used to try and give a flavor or a pointing to what non duality might mean ..if it can be explained at all within the arena of the human mind. So the Wave and Ocean is one, there are many more, the Sun and the suns rays etc. I live in Ireland and was raised with the Catholic Culture i suppose which is a highly metaphorical and symbolic Religion so im quite comfortable with using metaphors to point and suggest things.
" A Wave is not composed of water ?" Really ! What is it composed of ? Wood ? So you talking about language are you ? How we use it to designate what we mean ?

ever see the act where a guy sticks his head in the lion's mouth?
that's the feeling i get in attempting to answer you here....

what is a wave? it is an expression of energy.
it operates through a medium; in this instance water [an ocean].
sun rays are energy; expressed through the medium of space.
sun rays are not composed of space.
ocean waves are not composed of water.

i don't suppose i have a particular conclusion to draw for you.
will you snap my head off now?

all apologies,
H:O:R:A:C:E

[muffin]

Originally Posted by H:O:R:A:C:E

ever see the act where a guy sticks his head in the lion's mouth?
that's the feeling i get in attempting to answer you here....

what is a wave? it is an expression of energy.
it operates through a medium; in this instance water [an ocean].
sun rays are energy; expressed through the medium of space.
sun rays are not composed of space.
ocean waves are not composed of water.

i don't suppose i have a particular conclusion to draw for you.
will you snap my head off now?

all apologies,
H:O:R:A:C:E

Good afternoon horace

"i don't suppose i have a particular conclusion to draw for you.
will you snap my head off now?"

LOL

I would stick with what you feel.

Your putting words to what you see, yet you can feel energy and vibration and I would say you would have as much trouble explaining that one too.

[r6r6]

oops misplocate that message r6

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by H:O:R:A:C:E

ever see the act where a guy sticks his head in the lion's mouth?
that's the feeling i get in attempting to answer you here....

what is a wave? it is an expression of energy.
it operates through a medium; in this instance water [an ocean].
sun rays are energy; expressed through the medium of space.
sun rays are not composed of space.
ocean waves are not composed of water.

i don't suppose i have a particular conclusion to draw for you.
will you snap my head off now?

all apologies,
H:O:R:A:C:E

"Before I had studied Zen for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains, and rivers as rivers. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and rivers are not rivers. But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest. For it's just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and rivers once again as rivers."

[muffin]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

I read the article from your teacher and it is a nice article and useful. That thing that is said about not being in control has resonated with me many times and is a really deep and interesting way of coming to some partial or even absolute experience of oneness. However, what i think usually lies behind the question of 'Free Will vs Determinism' is the one of intentionality. Intentionality as regards acts of Good and evil .. do i intentionally choose and cause an act of evil lets say.

This question for me is much harder to answer than the question of 'Free will and Determinism'. Non Duality Teachers such Ramesh Balsekar and other teachers have said or suggested that we have very little control over how our lives unfold. That the unfoldment of our lives is based on genes and up to date conditioning ? Wonder what he means by conditioning in this sense ? I mean in the sense of committing an intentional negative act ?

Good afternoon Joe Mc

Day to day you have all the choices you could wish for, yet over all, we are all on the same path.

Poetry in motion, for it has a beauty all of it's own, for each is a word and each has it own story.

[muffin]

.double post

[no1wakesup]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Thank you. I've heard people speaking about the wave and the ocean. Is the wave the ocean or part of the ocean? Because the wave has individual characteristics does it mean that it is not part of the ocean ? Because there is thought, discrimination, choices or preferences going on doesn't mean that there is seperation ? We could say that the wave is seperate from the ocean on some level at least as we can identify and discriminate it as a wave.

If thought is happening to someone there, a perspective someone, then that identity carries that conditioning forward. The immediate interpretation, the thought we claim as our own, is for the most part, the unconscious reciever of thought, not the thinker of thought. Some how today, we have conviniently dismissed that part. There is no way around it. Untill you are no longer identified with/ by thought, liberation is not there

The wave is all together the ocean, the ocean is all together the wave. The wave as separate only appears that way within a conditioned mind. Yet it is the pull to seek which comes from the notion that you already are.

The sense of individuality ( the tangible form which confirms "my body") starts at the trough (base) and begins to form the wave of experience. Duality was there at the very beginning of the wave and represented in the relationship between ocean and sky. Without the pull of gravity which the sky provides and the currents the ocean forms, the wave would never be.* One cannot work without the other* All the while, in the depths of the ocean, the water remain still. No different than how in the depth of our being, we are that same original stillness, that untouched consciousness where no turbulance is found.

As the wave continues to form, it biulds momentum moving towards a far away shoreline. The* higher and longer the wave, the more powerful the experience. The greater this wave, the bigger the crash

As the wave approaches shallow water it begins to break, no different as to when our own sense of time seems to narrow down. The end is found when the crest breaks over and washes up on the shore, only to return once more from where it came. And so a new wave begins

Now imagine in this metaphor that the ocean that you are, that infinite stillness, has no ocean floor. So ultimatly there is no duality. How can there be? If there is no ocean floor, there is no ocean, nor waves above. Without the ocean there is no sky to relate to.

So this wave goes on its journey to find its source yet unknowingly seeks out the same ocean it unfolds from. It is not a separate event, only appears that way. It is that pull to seek the ocean which comes from the notion that you already are the ocean. We are the ocean but we are preoccupied with the wave of experience.

When one is liberated there is no differentiating wave, there is one collective movement, one quality simply unfolding. Its no longer happening to a someone there. It is the play that can now be witnessed or not.