Is This Reality Perfect?

[Centered]

I'd say the word "Perfect" is subjective in this world.

But for some reason we do have a deep inner Paradigm of what perfection is.

[WabiSabi]

Originally Posted by davidsun

What you say sounds (to me like it is) fully ex-peer-ienced. Whatever ... I think it is extremely well thought out and articulated, WabiSabi. This will have to do for a 'zen-bow' icon ('bow' as in bowing one's head-n-torso in a gesture of honoring).



Your putting "I mean, if my ego truly bought into what I am describing here, I'd probably just eat ice cream till I die." in there was a 'cherry on top' ex-peer-ience for me.

Much to think about. All that comes to me to say at this point is that I think a person who is conscious of being 'hypocritical' in effect 'hears' 'the voice' of his or her 'conscience'. [Con = all; Science = knowledge]. His or her 'ego' is then aware of having a choice in said regard, a choice which, depending on what he or she chooses, will result in either a (consciously?) 'more' authentic or (consciously?) 'less' authentic integration of said person's 'ego' with THE FLOW of (all) BEING. The 'quality' (for want of a better word) of said person's experience and expression will therefore be 'better' (in the sense of 'more' 'truly' reflecting and channeling the essential nature (THE ESSENCE) of said BEING. Or something like that, methinks. The river [of LIFE] flows towards and eventually merges into the ocean [of LIFE] because their is a 'gradient' in said regard. The 'ground' is this regard is not 'flat' - or else the phenom we 'see' as 'evolution' would have no 'directional' pull (or push! - I have often thought of my 'self' as being 'kicked' bass-ackwards 'into' 'heaven' ) There would be no 'reason' to do anything other than repeat the pattern of one's 'ego' configuration forever otherwise.

Do you 'see' what I 'see' in this regard as 'explaining' your own and others' respective 'moralities', such as they are, I wonder?

Hmm, I think I will change how I use the word authentic. So far, I have been using the word to refer to things that are a process of the universe, which is to say everything. I see our ignorance as being just as much a process of the universe as our enlightenment, and so to me such ignorance is authentic. But from an ego perspective, inauthenticity is a more tangible thing, so let me go forwards with that in mind.

Now I definitely like your analogy of a river and an ocean, so I will piggy-back off of that visual.

I am not sure how familiar you are with hydrology, but, in essence, rivers are not flat. That gradient you speak of causes all kinds of funny things to happen. Within rivers are features called eddies, which are low-pressure areas where the direction of current is reversed. Basically, the water in eddies flows uphill. Now that's not exactly true, as the pressures in question actually ensure that the water is flowing downhill even though it may appear that the flow is reversed. But to an observer who doesn't look close enough or understand deeply enough, eddies seem to defy physics and flow the opposite direction of the river. It seems as though they fight gravity. A drop of water that is making the journey from mountain to ocean will surely get stuck in many eddies, sometimes for short periods of time and sometimes for long periods of time. Now the important thing to understand is that the river cannot exist without these eddies, and the eddies cannot exist without the river. The eddies are fundamentally a part of the river.

You think that inauthenticity is fighting the flow of existence, but I do not see it that way. I see inauthenticity as eddies, where we as individuals may get stuck for a time. From a limited perspective (the perspective of the ego), it may seem that an inauthentic person is 'fighting the flow', but I do not believe that the flow of existence is the type of force that can be fought. I believe that it is an absolute force. A drop of water cannot fight the flow of the river, but it CAN catch eddies while still going with the flow. Our egos are a product of this universe, and IMO are inextricably intertwined with reality and existence and all of that stuff. How can we fight the river when we are the river itself? Perhaps an individual may spend lifetimes in an eddy, going in circle after circle, lost in inauthenticity, in ignorance, in wrong view. But when the time is right, that individual will reenter the river of life and move closer to the ocean.

I also think it is misguided thinking to believe that the ocean is the end. We can see this in our natural world as cycles repeat. The water that reaches the ocean eventually gets recycled and starts the journey over again. There has to be 'material' to make the journey from ignorance to enlightenment, from seperation to unification. So there must be a supply of ignorance, or of 'separated material', that can then make the trip to the ocean. The water that flows towards the ocean came from the ocean itself, just as we, no matter how inauthentic we may be, arose from the ocean of life. A drop of water may spend an inconceivable amount of time in the ocean, but it will always leave eventually. Such is the way of reality. Reaching the ocean is not the end, for if you realize yourself as all that is, you embody all opposites. Ignorance and inauthenticity are just as much a part of you as knowledge and compassion.

[WabiSabi]

Originally Posted by happy soul

I agree. Everything is happening perfectly. All is as it should be. Every experience and choice is the highest good.

The divine plan is for ALL GOOD THINGS to be. God wants us to FULLY experience love, joy, and all good things.

But without all 'bad' things, there couldn't be all good things. Without anger, there couldn't be forgiveness; without sickness, there wouldn't be such a thing as healing; without ignorance, there couldn't be learning; without the illusion of separation, there'd be no journey back to God. Without ALL POSSIBILITIES, we couldn't fully experience all good things.

Does this mean it's okay to do wrong? No, because there's the RELATIVE. In the ABSOLUTE sense, every choice is perfect. But RELATIVELY speaking, there is such a thing as imperfection and badness.

The law of karma (what you give, you receive, multiplied), is simply what works, never punishment. It's best for everyone, even for those who do wrong. It's 'utilitarian' justice, not 'retributivist'.

That was very clear. Thanks for your input! I agree with almost everything you said, except for the part about the divine plan being for good things. I feel like that is a half-truth.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by WabiSabi

There was a story I heard, though I don't remember where I heard it. But it was about some Zen master I think. It goes like this:

"A young Christian man who had absolute faith in God as a personal creator asked the Zen master whether God exists. The Zen master replied that God did not exist. Another young man, this one an Atheist who had absolute faith that the universe was solely material, asked the Zen master whether God exists. The Zen master replied that God did exist."

It may seem that I am telling people that it is okay to be mean or destructive, but that is not the case. All I am trying to do is allude to the true nature of that which Absolute.

That is not the intent of the Zen Master/tale.

[WabiSabi]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

That is not the intent of the Zen Master/tale.

Would you care to explain it to me?

[Gem]

Originally Posted by WabiSabi

Hmm, I think I will change how I use the word authentic. So far, I have been using the word to refer to things that are a process of the universe, which is to say everything. I see our ignorance as being just as much a process of the universe as our enlightenment, and so to me such ignorance is authentic. But from an ego perspective, inauthenticity is a more tangible thing, so let me go forwards with that in mind.

Now I definitely like your analogy of a river and an ocean, so I will piggy-back off of that visual.

I am not sure how familiar you are with hydrology, but, in essence, rivers are not flat. That gradient you speak of causes all kinds of funny things to happen. Within rivers are features called eddies, which are low-pressure areas where the direction of current is reversed. Basically, the water in eddies flows uphill. Now that's not exactly true, as the pressures in question actually ensure that the water is flowing downhill even though it may appear that the flow is reversed. But to an observer who doesn't look close enough or understand deeply enough, eddies seem to defy physics and flow the opposite direction of the river. It seems as though they fight gravity. A drop of water that is making the journey from mountain to ocean will surely get stuck in many eddies, sometimes for short periods of time and sometimes for long periods of time. Now the important thing to understand is that the river cannot exist without these eddies, and the eddies cannot exist without the river. The eddies are fundamentally a part of the river.

You think that inauthenticity is fighting the flow of existence, but I do not see it that way. I see inauthenticity as eddies, where we as individuals may get stuck for a time. From a limited perspective (the perspective of the ego), it may seem that an inauthentic person is 'fighting the flow', but I do not believe that the flow of existence is the type of force that can be fought. I believe that it is an absolute force. A drop of water cannot fight the flow of the river, but it CAN catch eddies while still going with the flow. Our egos are a product of this universe, and IMO are inextricably intertwined with reality and existence and all of that stuff. How can we fight the river when we are the river itself? Perhaps an individual may spend lifetimes in an eddy, going in circle after circle, lost in inauthenticity, in ignorance, in wrong view. But when the time is right, that individual will reenter the river of life and move closer to the ocean.

I also think it is misguided thinking to believe that the ocean is the end. We can see this in our natural world as cycles repeat. The water that reaches the ocean eventually gets recycled and starts the journey over again. There has to be 'material' to make the journey from ignorance to enlightenment, from seperation to unification. So there must be a supply of ignorance, or of 'separated material', that can then make the trip to the ocean. The water that flows towards the ocean came from the ocean itself, just as we, no matter how inauthentic we may be, arose from the ocean of life. A drop of water may spend an inconceivable amount of time in the ocean, but it will always leave eventually. Such is the way of reality. Reaching the ocean is not the end, for if you realize yourself as all that is, you embody all opposites. Ignorance and inauthenticity are just as much a part of you as knowledge and compassion.

So well said.

[blossomingtree]

“You may remember the story of how the devil and a friend of his were walking down the street, when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket. The friend said to the devil, “What did that man pick up?” “He picked up a piece of Truth,” said the devil. “That is a very bad business for you, then,” said his friend. “Oh, not at all,” the devil replied, “I am going to let him organize it."

[WabiSabi]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

“You may remember the story of how the devil and a friend of his were walking down the street, when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket. The friend said to the devil, “What did that man pick up?” “He picked up a piece of Truth,” said the devil. “That is a very bad business for you, then,” said his friend. “Oh, not at all,” the devil replied, “I am going to let him organize it."

I like that parable. But that begs the question of why we are here at all, in this forum, trying to speak of Truth. If we understand the meaning of this parable, then shouldn't we just stop talking about it all?

Also, I don't think that was the point the Zen Master was trying to make.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by WabiSabi

Also, I don't think that was the point the Zen Master was trying to make.

I wasn't answering that post, WabiSabi. This thread just reminded me of the tale....

Re: Zen, sorry, Zen is not intellectual so I'm not qualified to answer it for you.

BT

[WabiSabi]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

I wasn't answering that post, WabiSabi. This thread just reminded me of the tale....

Re: Zen, sorry, Zen is not intellectual so I'm not qualified to answer it for you.

BT

Well I won't lie, this thread exists solely to sate my ego. I happen to like sharing what I believe, but if I just go around spouting this kind of stuff in my everyday life I'd be tossed into the cuckoo's nest. People either need to ask the right question or share the right belief so I can contradict or agree with it. That's why this forum is so nice. I suppose I am playing into the devil's hands in that way.